M1 Carbine in an intermediate caliber

[mrclark303]

Hi all,

I was just wondering if having encountered and studied examples of the MP44, was there any attempt to produce an intermediate caliber M1 Carbine prototype?

It strikes me that the carbine is most of the way to being an 'assault rifle' anyway, some beefing up of the receiver and altering dimensions perhaps and introduce a .30 intermediate cartridge based on the German 7.96 Kurz design.

It seems to me like an obvious direction to explore, so did they?

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[eb in oregon]

"It seems to me like an obvious direction to explore, so did they?"

No. They developed the M14.

[Lee Enfield]

In effect, the M1 Carbine IS an intermediate cartridge...

110gr bullet at 2000fps...

[floydthecat]

I have modified a Saginaw Gear to 9 x 19 using factory loads. Not an intermediate cartridge, but proof that it can be done, if you get the pressures right.

Several other pistol calibers would work just as well, but you won?t gain any performance that delivers much improvement over the 7.62 x 33, just shoot cheaper.

[mrclark303]

Just to refine my question, time period in question is 44 to 48 ....

I am of course assuming US top brass was impressed with the MP44, perhaps it wasn't?

The evidence of no attempt to produce something like it, would assume they weren't??

It just occurred to me last night, that the M1 carbine is an excellent starting point for (and only a small developmental push from) turning the design into a firearm 'along the same lines' of the MP44, not in manufacturing, materials etc, but in practical effect.

A .30 Kurtz would be an interesting round!

Point taken on the .30 Carbine round though, a personal favourite calibre....

I just thought it was an interesting discussion...

[Tom in N.J.]

The M1 Carbine is an assault weapon in New Jersey and has been banned since 1991. It is, however one of the two types of 'assault weapons' that could have been registered and retained. (The other is the M14s / M1A.)

[mrclark303]

Interesting Tom...

I suppose if the USA had made a move to produce a firearm in the late war to 1950 time period, that sat between the Carbine and the Garand, they would have produced something that looked rather like a Ruger Mini14...

[eb in oregon]

The M2 Carbine re-barreled to 5.7MMJ is and would have been a more modern "assault rifle." No other changes to the rifle were required outside of some feed ramp modifications. However when Melvin Johnson developed the 5.7MMJ (.22 Spitfire) the military was still determined to stay with .30 caliber cartridges. Thus 7.62 NATO was developed. However it wasn't all that much later that the 5.56 NATO was considered and adopted. The military missed a golden opportunity to utilize the M2 Carbine as a more modern firearm that would have been an ideal weapon in the jungles of Vietnam.

[mrclark303]

Just looked up .22 Spitfire, looks like a very interesting cartridge...

Certainly an M2 chambered in .22 Spitfire, with a 30 round magazine and perhaps in a Para stock would have been a very useful weapon in the close confines of jungle warfare.

I believe the Green Beret advisers used M2 Carbines in Para Stocks, being the lucky owner of an M1A1, I can certainly attest to the compact nature and pointability of the design.

[DaveHH]

Melvin's invention was ill timed, you could get surplus carbine ammunition for about 3-5 cents a round at the time, so what's the point?

I personally think that the M1 carbine was taken a step too far with the M2. It is a fragile design compared to say M16 or AK and I doubt that it could have held up well to prolonged use of a 50,000+ CUP cartridge. They were breaking with cases that were a bit too long. In actual field use the M14 and M16 were miles ahead in reliability and especially accuracy. The carbine did what it was supposed to do and did it well. The fact that after 6.5M were made there is still a huge demand for them and they are still shooting says a lot about their history.