British pressure and a soup sandwich

[Edward Horton]

"There is NO printed data stating we have a 10% fudge factor in converting long tons to PSI."

Really? This is from a web page you referenced earlier in this thread -

"In Britain, a third set of crusher standards were developed, using a "base" crusher. . . The units were generally stated in British long tons per square inch, or tsi. Pressures indicated by this method run 10 to 20% below those indicated by radial crushers."

I'm afraid you've gotten confused between Winchester ammunition (including cases) and Winchester powder. Same name - but different products, manufacturers, corporate affiliations, and marketing/distribution channels.

Winchester Ammunition went belly up when it lost the Government Contract to produce ammunition at two different Government ordnance depots, Generial Dynamics now produces this ammunition under the Winchester logo like U.S. Repeating Arms does.

The pressure readings, I understood this to be the axial method produced 10% less indicated pressure on the crusher pellet but both methods converted to the same pressure, 18.5 tsi is not a plus or minus 10% figure and neither is PSI a plus or minus 10% figure.

[Parashooter]

"Winchester Ammunition went belly up when it lost the Government Contract to produce ammunition at two different Government ordnance depots, Generial Dynamics now produces this ammunition under the Winchester logo like U.S. Repeating Arms does."

You must be thinking about some other outfit. The Winchester Division of Olin seems to be pretty healthy these days. Check out this story from the local paper in East Alton where the Winchester ammo plant is located - Winchester ammo sales fire off record earnings | quarter, first, sales - Local News - The Telegraph

April 28, 2009 - 8:41 AM

CLAYTON, Mo. - A boost in ammunition sales fueled a record quarterly earnings report for its Winchester Division, Olin Corp. announced today.

The company's first quarter 2009 net income was $46.7 million, or 60 cents per diluted share, which compares to $37.3 million, or 50 cents per diluted share in the first quarter of 2008. Sales in the first quarter of 2009 were $400.6 million, compared to $399.1 million in the first quarter of 2008.

"Winchester achieved the highest level of quarterly earnings in its history, reflecting the continuation of the stronger than normal demand that began in the fourth quarter of 2008," Joseph D. Rupp, chairman, president, and chief executive officer, said.

Winchester first quarter 2009 sales were $132.9 million compared to $110.8 million in the first quarter of 2008. The increase reflects higher sales volumes. Commercial, law enforcement, and domestic military sales all increased during the quarter which more than offset a decline in industrial sales. Winchester's first quarter 2009 segment income was $17.0 million compared to $10.0 million in the first quarter of 2008. The increase in segment income reflects the higher sales volumes and favorable pricing, Rupp said.

[Edward Horton]

The sales are up for the General Dynamics Armament Division (Old Winchester/Olin) because they are selling so much 7.62x39 ammo to the Iraqi’s and Pakistan Taliban rebels.


I try to keep up with my “orphan 30-30” family tree

[Dimitri]

Winchester Ammunition is owned by Olin Corporation, and General Dynamics neither owns or operates either company.

The rights to use the Winchester name is also owned by the Olin Corporation which is leasing the name to FN Hersal right now after US Repeating Arms went bankrupt.

Dimitri

[Parashooter]

I'll try one more time before giving up in despair -

Winchester ammunition - Division of Olin Corporation. Makes cases, primers, bullets, loaded ammunition. Olin

Winchester powder - Name licensed to Hodgdon for distribution and marketing. Made by St. Marks Powder, a division of General Dynamics. St. Marks Powder

Winchester firearms - Name licensed to Herstal Group. http://www.herstalgroup.com/

Maybe Mr. Horton is confused by the "Small Caliber Ammunition Consortium" - an arrangement led by General Dynamics. Press release, May 2004 -

In response to a recent U.S. Army market survey for a Small-Caliber Ammunition Systems Integrator, General Dynamics has partnered with the Winchester Division of the Olin Corporation to assemble a team of noteworthy North American and international producers to offer a full service solution to meet all of the current and envisioned demand for small-caliber ammunition. In addition to General Dynamics and Winchester, the team consists of Israel Military Industries Ltd. (IMI) and SNC Technologies, Inc., of Canada.

Partnership and ownership are not the same thing!

[Edward Horton]

Maybe its time to get back on tract with my post, instead of being side tracked by powder manufactures.

I was looking for British participation, British participation

British pressure and a soup sandwich
________________________________________
Any British or Commonwealth mathematicians in the house.

What would the 19 ton British proof marking be in American PSI?

Is this long tons or short tons?

I’m asking because of what I saw below in the S.A.I.S manual and our American reloading manuals which in one states that our American Factory Ammunition is loaded to below 43,000 CUP (Copper Units Pressure) in deference to the older Enfield’s still being used and shot.

Did two different standard operating pressures exist or a change occur as below in British .303 ammunition and are my pressure figures correct, I used long ton figures.

In Skennertons “Australian SMLE Variations” I saw that the older Australian cordite .303 round was 19.07 t.s.i = 42,720 PSI ? and this was later increased for later Mk.VII rounds to 20.71 t.s.i = 46,390 PSI?

Would these pressures above equate to American reloading standards.

[Edward Horton]

After reviewing published information on Winchester/Olin I have awarded the following points for information content and clarity.

Parashooter – 25 points (I hate it when he’s right)

Ed Horton – 5 points (Winchester can’t make the ammunition if General Dynamics doesn’t sell them the powder)

[Parashooter]

Who says they have to use "Winchester" (St. Marks) powder. GD doesn't own all the powder makers (yet)!

[Edward Horton]

Who says they have to use "Winchester" (St. Marks) powder. GD doesn't own all the powder makers (yet)!

Your right Parashooter, Winchester/Olin might decide to load Hodgdons spherical powders in their ammunition.

Ed Horton awarded an additional 15 points for jocularity on WHO else uses Winchester ball powder.