Winchester P14 markings

[Gavvymusic]

HI Guys. Can you be gentle with me cos I’m a virgin on this site.
The name is Gav. I like to consider myself to be suave (as in SuaveGav) but nobody else seems to see it that way.

Anyway I picked up a P14 couple of years back and I’ve recently taken an interest in its markings and history. So I was wondering if I could now pick you guys’ brains?
I’ve done a bit of digging on the Net and got Messrs Skennerton and Stratton to give me a hand with their “Broad Arrow” and “Pattern 1914 and U.S. Model of 1917” pubs.

I would love to know the date of manufacture and acceptance of my wee toy.

Also I wonder if you guys you could tell me if I’m on the right track with my findings and maybe come up with suggestions at the bits that have stumped me.

I've tried to upload pics in numerical order but they've got mixed up.

In general terms what I’m thinking is that the rifle is a Winchester P14 Mk I made during or before December 1916.
During its life it has had the rear leaf sight and rear volley arm with peep removed and a cheek piece and Parker Hale PH5B rear sight added. There’s also a Parker Hale sling swivel

WOOD-WISE

The condition of the wood seems very good despite its age. [001 & 002]
The Winchester rondel and acceptance marks on the right side of the butt are clear. [003]
There is also a mark on the bottom of the butt. [004]
To me it looks like it could be the mark of a British inspector who carried out his work in the U.S. – i.e. a crown over a number over A. Is that an asterisk below the A?
I can’t see any asterisks or stars anywhere else.
The cheek-piece looks well-made and fitted. Dunno what kind of wood though. [003, 003A & 005]
The underside on the rear upper hand guard is in good nick and is displaying the Winchester “W” and the number 194 and possibly the number “7”. [006]
There’s also a cheeky little number (maybe 38 or 58) carved in to the wood at the bottom of the bolt handle rest notch. [007]
Any ideas?

METAL-WISE
I’ve picked up the Winchester’s “W” on the front sight block [008], the bayonet support [009], the underside of the bolt handle [010] and (prefixing the serial number) on the receiver and knox both right side. [011]
The serial numbers match as does the number on the upper side of the bolt arm [012].
Don’t suppose any of you guys happen to have a rear leaf sight kicking around with this number on it

I’ve found the first proof mark at the front of the knox [013], the second on the left side of the receiver just behind the knox [014] and also one on the upper surface of the bolt handle [012].
There is what appears to be another proof mark (but it looks like crossed swords, not pennants) on the left side of the knox just next to the .303 mark. The mark incorporates numbers (maybe 2’s or 3’s) [013]. Any ideas?
As well as the acceptance mark (broad arrow) on the butt [003] I’ve found it on the right side of the knox [011] and left side of the receiver [014]
I’ve found “NOT ENGLAND MAKE” on the left side of the knox (but you’ll need to have been to Specsavers to see it!) [015] and left side of the receiver just to the rear of the knox [016]
I’ve found a couple of inspection marks on the knox (crown over numbers or letters over A) [017] but there’s also an irritating little mark to the centre right on the knox that looks like a 5 inside a capital L [011]. Any ideas?
The knox also has nitro proved marks.
It’s a busy little knox
Also on the knox just below the 16 mark (presumably year of manufacture) there’s a mark that maybe the royal cypher [018]
But here’s the thing
To the left of this royal cypher(?) there’s a symbol which is a bit hard to make out. Its quite large and it looks like U.S. Ordnance “Flaming Bomb” Proof Mark. It’s repeated on the receiver left side just next to the “NOT ENGLAND MAKE” mark [019]. According to Stratton this mark would only appear on the P17. There’s also a similar mark on the ball grip of the bolt handle [027]
I dare say there’ll be other marks (esp W) that would reveal themselves on rifle disassembly but that’s for another day (or never)

BOLT/BARREL
I can’t tell if the bolt short lug length is as short as it should be [028] or if the rear barrel face concavity [029] is correct for a Mk I cos I have nothing to compare them with. The rear barrel face looks concave but it doesn’t feel it.

ITS HISTORY
We’ll never know what this rifle has been up to over the years of course but it’s fun to speculate.
My guess is that it was made in ‘16 and saw little or probably no action in WW1
It seems to have ducked getting retrospectively converted to a Mk I*
After the war it was squirreled away in cosmoline never to be seen again …… until ’39 that is.
But even then it kept its head down and managed to dodge the draft staying hidden in the Cosmiline while its brothers were being Weedonised and sent off to do their duty.
Then some time after the war it got its BNP release papers and moved into the non-military market, fell into the hands of Parker Hale who elected to “targetize” it.
Hence the rear sight cheek piece change etc. (I’ve read this was common practice in the 60s and 70s).

I’d really appreciate any thoughts/guidance/opinions you guys could give me.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[browningautorifle]

Nice looking piece. I'd like to wring it out and see...

[M94/14]

You definitely have a Winchester P14 mk1. It was likely configured for target use by Parker Hale, as it has their tell tale polished bolt (In the white), target sling swivel, and PH5B sight with adjustable aperture. The main difference between your example and mine, (other than yours is a Mk1 and mine a mk1*), is that my example has "Tested by Parker Hale" stamped on the top of the receiver ring, and doesn't have the "sniper style" cheek rest. The Target conversion rifles usually appear to be in the best condition of any that normally get sold and traded. The mark you say looks like "flaming bomb" is not. The markings certainly look like some sort of proof mark, but definitely not the American "flaming bomb". If it has a good shiny, sharp bore, it should shoot very well.

You could find a Winchester P14 rear sight to install if you wish, and you could probably get past the two holes left in the stock if you removed the cheek rest...

[Sapper740]

The wrist on your rifle is noticeably thinner than on my as issued Winchester MkI* and has a pronounced 'hook' on the pistol grip. I imagine that was done to fit the hold of the original owner?

[Surpmil]

Starting in 1935 these rifles were made available for purchase by members of the NRA (GB) and permitted in competition for "the King's Prize and in all other competitions in the Grand Aggregate series" at Bisley.

They were sold for the princely sum of £3 and that was no mean price in 1934. Hard to believe, but the SMLE was sold for about £12! There was a good deal of discontent with the SMLE as a target rifle due to its "buggy whip" barrel and wandering woodwork, which if you wanted to be competitive had to be carefully set up and then nursed along. An expensive process if you couldn't do it yourself, which gave an advantage to the better-heeled competitors. That discontent was reflected in the institution in 1935 of a "Rack rifle" class, also for the King's Prize and Grand Aggregate competions, in which only strictly "as issued" rifles could be used and only rifles actually on issue to the competitor's unit. If you didn't have access to an issued rifle by virtue of membership in a TA or Regular Army unit apparently you were out of luck!

I'd guess that quite a few, perhaps most of the P14s seen today which avoided going through the Weedon "repair" are either such private purchase rifles or perhaps rifles that spent the war in stores in India or some other remote spot and were never altered as a result.

Your cheekrest appears to be an original, but the screws are clearly not so not sure what that indicates. Perhaps a rifle used competitively by someone who had access to the cheekrest "unofficially" through military supply system? Or perhaps the screws indicate a much more recent fitting intended to add some "sniper flavour" and resale value? If you take it off the condition of the wood underneath should indicate how long it has been there.

P14s with such sights were on issue until at least 1943 in the UK due to the lack of telescope rifles - there are photos of them in use by Canadian troops in the UK dated 1942 or 43. That explains why as Warren has told us, Long Branch No4(T)s were being flown over to the UK in new production aircraft being ferried across the Atlantic as the Canadian Army there was getting tired of waiting for actual sniping rifles to be issued. Sadly the daft buggers in MacKenzie-King's government had allowed themselves to be inveigled into having all or most equipment for the Canadian Army issued from British stocks, and Canadian war production thus all or mostly fed into the hands of the War Office and Ministry of Supply! The result was Canadian troops being issued not with Canadian rifles but whatever the WO divvied out in their own sweet time.

So as I've said before, thousands of Mk.I No.32 scopes rolled merrily off the lines in the UK and were put into store somewhere while H&H cheerfully carried on turning out perhaps five rifles a day. This explains why the Canadian Army in Italy had P14s with Warner & Swasey scopes still on issue in 1943. Whether they still had P14s like yours I don't know, but as you may know, the cheekrest was first created for the offset scopes of the 421 Alex Martin P14 sniper rifles hastily converted in 1940-41 to try and make up for losses at Dunkirk etc. It wouldn't be at all surprising if some of those P14s with target sights fitted that were being used as improvised sniper rifles might have also had cheekrests fitted as they do improve the consistency of "cheek-weld" etc. and were obviously available in the system by around that time. That's purely conjecture though without photographic evidence from 1940-43. I don't know if H&H fitted cheekrests from the beginning of their production or if they were introduced after production started, but that is the context as far as we can deduce it I suggest.

Hard not to digress when we get into these fields!

[Gavvymusic]

Hi guys
Many thanks for taking an interest in my rifle. I really appreciate it.
The more I learn about it the more I wanna know.
To Surpmil
Is it you opinion that the rifle would have had its cheek rest attached before it got targetized by PH? In their ‘47 caralogue they don’t make any mention of a cheek rest.

[M94/14]

I would suggest that the stock modifications specifically the pistol grip area, the refinishing, and the addition of the cheek rest may have been done in the USA.

Excepting, mostly sporting firearms, I don't know of too many military pattern rifles that used Phillips head screws (cheek rest) for fasteners.

[Surpmil]

Hard to say when the cheekrest was first fitted; hence my suggestion to unscrew it and take a look. lf it's been there a long time that should be apparent from the amount of dust and dirt underneath and the appearance of the wood itself.

Could be it had flathead slotted screws holding the cheekrest on originally which somebody decided to replace.

I'd be very surprised if the cheekrest was any kind of military fitting though, so your best clue as to when it was fitted will be the dust, dirt and colour.

[Gavvymusic]

I unscrewed it and the condition was just like the rest of the butt except for a little mark at the front of the rest. I take it that points to it being recent? Had a look online and repros for No 4 (T) and L42/A1 are available which I believe were based on the design of the Martin cheek rest?
How do you tell the difference between these and the originals?

[Surpmil]

You've probably settled it then as a relatively recent addition done to make the rifle more valuable.

I'm not sure if really accurate replicas were made in the last few decades or not, but yours appears to be in the shape of the originals. A shape incidentally which never made any sense to me as the largest relief cut was on the left side rather than the right where the ball of the thumb would be for the vast majority of users.

Such things were "around" decades ago, before interest and and prices asked for Lee Enfield sniper kit took off for the moon. For example the several hundred No4(T)s chopped up by Hart & Whitacker when making target rifles out of them: I doubt those cheekrests went into a woodstove! https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=60649