No 4 1/2 and 1/3's

[Peter Laidler]

As for the BSA's, you're right. BSA was simply a private commercial factory and they didn't do any FTR's for the UK Military, only for foreign governments and as contractors. The governments concern was to keep the Fazakerley factory open and workforce busy. Westley Richards was also a private factory and they did the same with FTR'ing Bren Guns for foreign governments. Both BSA and W-R used to buy vast quantities to FTR and sell to the emerging , er...., African nations.... who used them against us later. As a bit of an aside for you Bren fans, they also had a patented and used an idea for Mk1 Brens where they'd machine off the drum sight dovetail and braze on the body a bracket arrangement that would take the Mk2 and 3 leaf sight. I have seen the drawings but not an actual gun. Does anyone have such a W-R 50's FTR Mk1/2 Bren as they used to call them

Although I am not a great 'spotter', If I hadn't SEEN a Fazakerley 1956 or later FTR (thanks Krinko etc) I would have disbelieved it due to the fact that by then the new build Mk2 for the RAF and other governments programme was in full swing.

The Krinko 1950 Mk1/2 picture shows just how bad the Faz markings could get and how difficult it was to read, especially after some use, a short bead blast and dip in the phosphate tank. Then paint it and the marks have disappeared. That's the earliest Mk1/2 I have seen.

As for Savage Mk1/2's, they do exist but I was always taught that these rifles (plus Diamond T transporters, in use up until the end of the 70's and Half Tracks, in use up until 1973 or so) NEVER belonged to the UK. They were only lent or leased to us and were subject to certain conditions and always liable to call back. Lend lease......, remind me to mention the Catalina flying boats one day..................

[Lance]

Thanks for the pic's Krinko! A '58 Mk 1/2....damn another one I have to find. And I thought a '57 was going to be tough! I have run across '57 FTR'd Mk 2's but have yet to see a '57 Mk 1/2! I almost picked up a '49 1/3 but the bore was bad, in reflection I should of grabbed it anyways. Ah, the joy of collecting.

Max, from my observations most of the makers of the No.4's have that step in the receiver side wall, except for LongBranch. On the earlier conversions in the previous pic's you can see them. Why they are there, I have no clue.

[krinko]

Only too happy to supply photos, gentlemen-----and very happy to see some serious attention being paid to the post-war No4.
Good luck in the hunt, Lance.
-----krinko

[jona]

How about a No. 4 Mk. 1/3 Trials rifle? According to Skennerton, about 200 were made.

[Peter Laidler]

How do you make a Mk1/3 trials rifle Jona? According to legend, trials rifles were all 1930's era Mk1's weren't they? Or am I missing something?

In any case, even from the small amount of detail shown in the picture from the official drawings that we have here, that the 84L-- rifle shown in the photo isn't a BSA or a Fazakerley conversion

[jona]

It is a No.4 Mk 1* converted to Mk 1/3 configuration. It was a trials conversionN of a Mk 1* to see if such was practical. Apparently markings had not been decided on yet as the only indicator was the '48 FTR date.

[Peter Laidler]

That wasn't converted to Mk1/3 spec at Fazakerley Jona. It might have been FTR'd at Fazakerley in 1948 but the 1/3 modification defiately wasn't there

[spinecracker]

Reviving an old thread, because this kind of information NEVER gets old.... does anyone know the extent of the FTR program at BSA, such as when it started and finished, how many rifles were changed to Mk.1/2 and Mk.1/3 configuration, etc? I hadn't even heard of an FTR program at BSA until a few days ago, and I want to plug the huge gap in my knowledge base (ok, my knowledge base is like Swiss cheese anyway..)

[Beerhunter]

Learned a bit o' new slang/terminology here .... anorak

I comes from the 'official' uniform of Train and Aircraft Spotters. Crimpline trousers at half-mast topped by an anorak and carrying a duffle bag with a Thermos Flask sticking out of it.

Actually I work for a famous Air Tattoo every year and the term 'Spotter' is now considered pejorative and should be replaced by the term 'enthusiast' but they're still spotters. (In the same way that Falkland Islanders are know as 'stills'.)

[peregrinvs]

As a bit of an aside for you Bren fans, they also had a patented and used an idea for Mk1 Brens where they'd machine off the drum sight dovetail and braze on the body a bracket arrangement that would take the Mk2 and 3 leaf sight. I have seen the drawings but not an actual gun. Does anyone have such a W-R 50's FTR Mk1/2 Bren as they used to call them

KevG spotted such a beast at Beltring some years back and took some photos:

Weapons OnLine - Indian MkI/3 or Mk3/I ??

Mark