Bizarre Safety Warning from the NRA

[enforsore]

I opened my NRA journal that arrived in the post today, only to find the most bizarre safety warning i have seen in ages.
On page 9 the NRA has issued a warning against using Enfield no4 7.62mm conversions to fire 155 RG ammo ???
and issues the warning against ALL 7.62mm conversions including envoys, enforcers, parker hale T4's and the like. Now this rifle in various guises has been around for 40 + years so why the problem now, or is it the health and safety nutters at work again !!!
comments gentlemen?

Information

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[Beerhunter]

I have whacked off an email asking for the source of this.

The nub of the warning is of course that the regular 7.62 mm NATO (L44A1?) is OK but the L42A1 is not.

[enforsore]

They are saying that the rifle was designed to fire the 144gr surplus ammo
with a bullet dia. of .3075 and that the newer 155 gr Radway has a diameter of .3083, never thought this difference would be an issue, and why now ! many years after the 155gr went into production.
But i am in no way an expert on bullet diameters, 'If it fit's i'll fire it' !!!!!!!

[Thunderbox]

I very much want them to justify this as, as far as I am aware, this is completely unsupported by any evidence/ incidence/ Proof advisory/ common sense/ etc at all. The UK NRA have minimal dealings or interest in "1st generation" Enfield-based anyway - they certainly do not carry out any sort of research or technical investigation.

I suspect that this has simply been picked up as a ***-end off the internet by one or two unqualified characters in the NSC, and taken as wisdom...

I have an Envoy where the previous owner has provided a log-book showing 9,000+ rnds of 155gn ammo through it. The rifle is still tight on its original "0" bolthead....

[Alan de Enfield]

On another thread on this forum someone commented that the warning was posted up on the notice board at Bisley a week or two ago.

Jumping on the bandwagon ??

I'm using military stuff which is 0.306" Bullet weight not known. - should I panic ?

The cartons are marked :

AB22
20 PATRONE
7.62mmx51 DM111
Weichern
Los MEN93B0009

[Alfred]

On another thread on this forum someone commented that the warning was posted up on the notice board at Bisley a week or two ago.

Jumping on the bandwagon ??

I'm using military stuff which is 0.306" Bullet weight not known. - should I panic ?

The cartons are marked :

AB22
20 PATRONE
7.62mmx51 DM111
Weichern
Los MEN93B0009

I checked with a UK target shooter on another forum and he wrote back that the warning had been up for at least six months.

There were other warnings about use of heavier bullets that were not based on the rifle used mentioned on the UK NRA sites. These were due to damage to backstops and increased range in case of a AD that might endanger built up areas beyond the end of the range.
It started with .338 rifles and the Joules limitation included a number of 7.62 and .308 loads using bullets heavier than 144 grains.

[John Sukey (Deceased)]

So it appears that they are more worried about what happens at the target end instead of what happens to the rifle?

[Alfred]

Well the shooter I'd asked about this copied down the info from his issue of the NRA journal

"Safety Warning

Enfield Rifle Actions Converted to 7.62 Calibre from .303 or made as 7.62mm

Enfield actions of the No4 and No5 type were originally designed to fire the British .303 service cartridges of the day.

Many of these actions have been subsequently converted from .303 to 7.62mm. Whilst a few selected actions may be stronger than others, most are not suitable for use in this calibre other than under certain conditions.

The 7.62mm Cartridge that they were inteded to use was the 144-grain NATO cartridge with a bullet diameter of .3075"

It is unsafe to fire these rifles with the 155 grain Radway Green cartridge or any other commercial cartridge using the 155 grain or heavier bullet which has a diameter of .3083" or larger

Firing these latter cartridges can ultimately lead to catastrophic failure of the bolt lugs and bolt body that could lead to serious injury. This risk is considerably increased if the chamber or cartridge gets wet or is oiled prior to firing.

The NRA will not accept responsibility for any accident or injury to persons or property caused by anyone using any 7.62/.308Win ammunition supplied by them in these converted actions.

The actions/rifles may fall under the following descriptions, but there may also be other names or descriptions used: SMLE Conversion, Enfield Conversion, No 4 Conversion, No 5 Conversion, Parker Hale T4 , Whitaker Special, Enfield Envoy and Enfield Enforcer.

You have been warned"

He went on to say he believed it to be more or less , paraphrased in my words, a insurance liability dodge. As long as theres a possibility of damage or injury then on your own head be it.

This warning seems to have been posted at NRA headquarters long before the recent discussions on these boards came about.

PS
While looking over the NRA site I found they also are banning solid bronze or copper alloy bullets, due to un predictable ricochet factors.
This would be bullets such as the Barnes or the old French Ball D.

Civilization is encroaching on the old rifle ranges just as longer ranging bullets are coming into their own.
Same problem around here these days.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

I received a scanned copy of the notice this morning. I have pulled the pdf apart and attach the text in its entirety:

"Safety Warning

Enfield Rifle Actions Converted to 7.62 Calibre from .303 or made as 7.62 mm. Enfield actions of the No 4 and No 5 type were originally designed to fire the British .303 service cartridges of the day.

Many of these actions have been subsequently converted from .303 to 7.62 mm. Whilst a few selected actions may be stronger than others, most are not suitable for use in this calibre other than under certain conditions.
The 7.62 mm Cartridge that they were intended to use was the 144-grain NATO cartridge with a bullet diameter of .3075".

It is unsafe to fire these rifles with the 155 grain Radway Green cartridge or any other commercial cartridges using the 155 grain or heavier bullet which has a diameter of .3083" or larger.

Firing these latter cartridges can ultimately lead to catastrophic failure of the bolt lugs and bolt body that could lead to serious injury. This risk is considerably increased if the chamber or cartridge gets wet or is oiled prior to firing.

The NRA will not accept responsibility for any accident or injury to persons or property caused by anyone using any 7.62 /.308 Win ammunition supplied by them in these converted actions.

The actions / rifles involved may fall under the following descriptions, but there may also be other names or descriptions used: SMLE Conversion, Enfield Conversion, No 4 Conversion, No 5 Conversion, Parker Hale T4, Whitaker Special, Enfield Envoy and Enfield Enforcer.

You have been warned."

Interestingly, but probably unsurprisingly, there is no date on the received document nor any authorization information.

I suspect that these folk are unaware, and do not wish to be aware, of a few interesting points:

Bullet diameter is a lot less important in pressure matters (within reason) that bullet weight. One of my No4s has a .300"/.308", 1:10 twist barrel, I built it to shoot 155gn Palmas out of .303 cases. However, it is throated to accept standard 174gn Mk7 ball so that if I ever part with it, there will be no issues with this ammo. Yes, it works quite well with Mk7 ball: with no sign of excessive pressure, such as hard extraction, high recoil or case damage.

I only shoot my 155gn target handloads in it for 2 reasons: good Mk7 ball is like hens teeth and I get better groups with the Palmas, even with the odd throat.

On a similar note, I once tried an interesting experiment with a Mod 38 Carcano carbine. This was to fire a standard steel-cored 7.62x39 round out of the unmodified 6.5x52 chamber and barrel. The barreled action was lashed to an old car tyre, the round clipped under the extractor and the fun initiated via a long string.

BORING!! The bullet hit the backstop about 25 yards away. The action opened normally. The steel case had considerably less taper than previously and there was no sign if excess pressure on the locking surfaces. The steel-cored, steel-jacketed bullet had jumped the gap to the chamber neck, been squeezed down a bit and exited, probably not quite intact, in the usual manner. That action was subsequently rebarreled to 7.62x39 as a single-shot kids training rifle and is still in use twenty years later.

Getting the recipe wrong with bullet weights and propellant types and loads is a whole different matter, however.

I suspect that there is also a lot of confusion about chamber pressure and effective back thrust on the bolt. If you build a No4 up in 5.56NATO and run long range, heavy bullet loads, you can be cheerfully operating at significantly higher pressures without it being very obvious or, in fact, in any way dangerous. (The usual caveats about firing pin diameter and protrusion still apply).

Maybe the real problem is that the larger diameter bullets are actually performing exceptionally well in .3075" spec barrels. (See all the work that the Finns did on the relationship between bullet and bore diameter).

[goo]

so is my '66 2a1 gonna blow up?