Benicia Arsenal/DCM Krag Carbines ...

[Nick Adams]

Was hoping someone could direct me to accurate reference material on the "sporter" carbines made by the Bernicia (CA) Arsenal for sale to NRA members through the DCM of the 1920s and 1930s.

Specifically, I'm trying to determine the particulars of how the BA Krag carbines were set-up. I've haven't been able to find much out there.

My understanding of the essential background on these guns is that, there being few real carbines available to NRA members who wanted a lighter, handier hunting tool than the 30" rifle, the NRA approached the Director of Civilian Marksmanship Sales about having the government arsenal at Bernicia convert existing 1898 Krag rifles to "carbine" configuration.

Apparently, this inquiry met with approval and a pattern or standard for BA-converted carbines was worked out. From what I've been able to find out this included: cutting down the barrel to 22"; using the barrel-banded front sight from a model 1903; retaining the 1901 rear rifle sight, putting the barrelled action into existing 1899 carbine stocks; sling swivels, etc.

I came into a Krag carbine about a month ago that pretty much tracks the above characteristics. Receiver states: "U.S. Model of 1898, Springfield Armory. Serial # is 21739X. The Arms Collectors search archives reference a born-on date of 1899 for the rifle. Stock cartouche date is 1899, inside a square w/ "Solette" or "Folette" above it. Sights, swivels, etc., are as above.

It's in great shape, with an excellent bore and crown, and nothing appears buggered-up. It shoots quite well at 100 yds, but I'm still getting use to it. I spent about 2 days cleaning the barrel. The former owner (who still owns six mint Krag rifles) indicated this was a BA-built carbine.

Thanks in advance for any help on references or sources that specifically discuss these BA-built DCM/ NRA carbines.

Information

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[sdkrag]

The only way to confirm an NRA Krag is to have the original paper work with the arm. There were thousands of Krags cut down over the years by individuals and gunsmiths.Some really well done some not. It was common to cut back to 22" and drop it in a carbine stock if it was available. some did a nice job cutting down rifle stocks, much to the dismay of current collectors. I have heard it said here that you buy the rifle, not the story. It should make a great hunting rifle. I have one I use and have helped my sons build sporters out of my extra parts.

[Nick Adams]

The only way to confirm an NRA Krag is to have the original paper work with the arm. There were thousands of Krags cut down over the years by individuals and gunsmiths.Some really well done some not. It was common to cut back to 22" and drop it in a carbine stock if it was available. some did a nice job cutting down rifle stocks, much to the dismay of current collectors. I have heard it said here that you buy the rifle, not the story. It should make a great hunting rifle. I have one I use and have helped my sons build sporters out of my extra parts.

Thanks for the reply.

IMO, it's asking a bit much to expect to see "original" DCM papers after 89 or so years.

That said, the scant detail I've been able to find out about the build specs of the DCM/NRA Krag "carbines" is consistent with the one I have. There should be a way to vet these guns, if not through the build specs alone, then perhaps by knowing whether the Benicia Arsenal put their own markings (numbers/letters) some place on the stock or on the metal when they did these conversions.

I haven't seen the Poyer or Mallory Krag books yet, but from what I was told they apparently reference and describe the DCM/NRA Krags. Frank de Haas' book does mention them, specifically the shortened 22" barrels, 03 front sights and sling swivels. There is also a short description about them in the Krag section in Flayderman's Guide on firearms values and pricing, and the 1899 carbine stock is referenced, among other indicators.

Guess I'll keep looking around.

[kragluver]

I'll look in my copies of Mallory and Poyer tonight when I get home. I don't recall them having much more detail (perhaps less) than what Brophy had in his book. Unfortunately, not a lot is known about the NRA carbines.

[Bill H]

I believe what you have described is about all that is known about the NRA carbine.

I too have one which fits all the criteria, and it was sold to as such. However, I paid $400 for it mostly because it was in such good shape, original finish, mirror bore, etc. Both the seller and I know that if there were substantiation to the fact that it is indeed an NRA carbine, he would have added another "0" to the price, and I would not have purchased it.

As far as I have been able to determine, there were no markings applied by Benecia. One clue is that the workmanship is very well done, which rules out many "Bubba" jobs, but there were many skilled gunsmiths back then, so quality alone does not really mean anything.

[Nick Adams]

Thanks, guys.

kragluver:

That would be helpful, as I don't have any of the Krag books. I'd be interested in whatever detail you could provide.

Bill H:

The workmanship on this one is indeed excellent. In fact, I was told these carbines were made from the pick of the better maintained 1898 rifles on hand.

Mine still has the mag cutoff switch. No attempt was made to Bubba-it up with a Lyman, Redfield or similar receiver-based aperture in that location.

And I assume that's how the 'smiths at Benicia intended these carbines to be: basically cut-down, stripped-down 1898 rifles, set into handy carbine stocks with no add-ons beyond the front 03 banded sight and sling swivels. A fine looking, portable, but otherwise Spartan weapon. Probably one of the best wilderness "survival" long arms of its day.

Also, on mine, the front stock band around the barrel is pinned cross-ways, not like the spring thingy holding the lower barrel band on a 1903. I've seen that long-ways stock spring (or lock) in a picture of a real Krag carbine (those issued by the military), but the front sight on those were different from the 1903-style.

As far as paperwork, it would be more reasonable in my view to expect the Benicia Arsenal or the DCM of that period to have recorded the serial numbers of the 1898 rifles they were converting to carbine form (perhaps w/ date of conversion) than to expect someone 80 years later to be able to furnish the original documents.

DCM or BA records should be easily accessed if they exist. Maybe the Krag experts would know if such records are around, or where to look?

Would perhaps the NRA division working w/ the DCM back then to get these carbines built have maintained any of its own records or documents w/ serial numbers for these guns? I've seen where they're sometimes called "NRA Krags" or "NRA Krag carbines."

When the weather gets better here, I'll try to get some pics taken and posted, and maybe we can compare specs.

[Parashooter]

I understand there is conflicting information on the subject, but Brophy's section on the DCM Krags states,

"Only Model 1899 Carbine stocks, Model 1901 rear sights and handguards, and carbine stock fittings were used. Cut down rifle stocks were not used on DCM Krags."

"Unfortunately, no identifying mark was placed upon Krag rifles and carbines sold through the DCM to NRA members. The rifles which were cut down to carbine length at Benecia Arsenal, California are the most difficult to confirm. The barrels were cut to 22 inches and new Model 1903 Rifle front sights were installed. The stock, handguard, stock fittings, and sight were original carbine parts. . . The DCM carbine barrel muzzle is crowned, like original carbine barrels, and the front sight is expertly installed. The Model 1903 front sight fixed stud retaining pin was dressed down to the surface of the stud and was refinished and appears just the same as those on an '03. Kirk and Bannerman jobs were not well done and the pins frequently did not fit the hole and were not flush with the fixed stud."

If this information is accurate, it would seem that a stock with butt swivel, split band with swivel, and band retaining pin is not characteristic of the DCM carbines. As described by Brophy, there should be no butt swivel and a solid band retained by a band spring. It may be worth noting that the DCM carbine pictured in this section appears to have a rifle-style handguard, not the humped version used on original carbines with the 1901 sight.

For an authoritative opinion, you could post some detail photos on the KCA forum, where Dick Hosmer just might stop by and take a look.

[sdkrag]

I have been collecting Krags for 30 years and have had the benefit of learning from some of the very knowlegable older collectors. To date no data base has come to light to help with this idetification. What we read in Brophy, Mallory, and Poyer are the best source and unfortunatly it ain't much. With out an NRA bill of sale or shippng papers it could be anything. With a cut down rifle stock my money is on a gunsmith job if it is well done. The Bannerman or other mass produced "carbines" are generally not as well done.

[Nick Adams]

Thanks for that Brophy quote, Parashooter.

Going down Brophy's list of features on DCM Krags, ...

... on mine, the barrel mics out to 22" exactly and the front sight is identical to his description, including the details on the pin. I also just lined up my 1903 next to the Krag; again, the front sights are identical.

The rear sight is a 1901, matching various pics I've seen of them. Frt & rear screws appear to be unbuggered originals, as does the windage lock in front of the base.

I've never seen a "1901 handguard," maybe someone can provide a pic. But mine is flat, with no hump, looks original with the 1901 sight, and was not cut or ground down.

My stock doesn't appear to be cut-down or re-shaped in anyway, and bears a cartouche date of 1899. Perhaps a pic of a genuine 1899 carbine stock and another of what a "cut down" 1899 rifle stock looks like would help a newbie like me distinguish them and vet mine?

If by "carbine stock fittings" Brophy's referring to the sling swivels, perhaps someone can link to a pic of the kind of swivels he means? What does a carbine's "butt swivel" look like? - and without a rear sling swivel, how were hunters supposed to attach carry slings to 1899 carbine stocks? My understanding is that the old calvary saddle rings were not used on the BA/DCM 1899 carbine stocks.

Maybe that would also help with the confusion on the cross pin on mine: it appears, along with the screw below that holds the swivel on the band, to be retaining the band tightly on the forefront of the stock (underside of the barrel). I checked de Haas again and he mentions the addition of such swivels to the BA/DCM Krags.

And, FWIW guys, I've gone over this carbine about 50 times now. I can't for the life of me find any lettering or cartouches resembling the words "Bannerman" or "Bubba" - or even reasonable abbreviations thereof.

Thanks again!

[Parashooter]

Normal US 1899 Krag carbines had no sling swivels, either on butt or on the band. They were intended for cavalry use, carried in a scabbard attached to the saddle. There was no need for a sling since the horse normally transported the carbine when it was not in the trooper's hands.

The carbine handguard for the 1901 sights had a small hump at the front end to prevent the sight leaf catching as the carbine was inserted into the scabbard. The rifle handguard for the 1901 sight is identical except for the absence of the hump.

Unlike the split rifle band, the solid carbine band cannot be spread to pass the retaining pin, therefore carbines were equipped with a band spring that could be depressed to enable band removal. A US Krag stock with a band retaining pin (and a mortise for the butt swivel) was originally a rifle stock.