30 carbine PDW - Older can be better

[imarangemaster]

I was browsing some writings from the Black Rifle "Tacticool" crowd, and it dawned on me that everyone has a hard on about the FN 5.7mm and what a great PDW round it is. In its BEST loading, it only has about 350 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle, and drops of from there! That is about a third of the M1 carbine rounds! Add to that that it looses energy faster, and has a more rainbow shaped trajectory, I fail to see what the excitement is about. It will icepick through some body armor, but the carbine will defeat 3A kevlar also.

Those same folks who rave about the 5.7 generally would pan the 30 carbine mercilessly as "ineffective". There are probably a million or so souls that would beg to differ.!

Don't get me wrong, I am not stuck in the past. AK103 is my overall first choice.

BTW: I think I mentioned a year or two ago on the old Jouster board that I read somewhere the French made a copy of the STG44 in 30 carbine for a short while. I came across that while researching the history of the CETME.

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[jmoore]

I think the advantage of the 5.7 is its reduced recoil impulse so its easier to control in a lightweight select fire weapon. These weapons are also straight blowbacks so they're cheaper to manufacture. The hardened core projectiles also penetrate better. All good if you are police or military. The commercial loads are basically centerfire 22 magnums- whoopee-poo! (in semi auto also- so no multi round bursts!) The main selling point to these weapons is "tacti-coolness" -at least for civilians. Waste of time and effort for the military.The police? Everybody around here tested 'em and went w/ M4's.

[Bill Hollinger]

The FN 5.7 will defeat a K-pot also. I thought about buying an upper for one of my ARs chambered in Five-seveN, as they like to call it, but the price tag made me thing otherwize.

[imarangemaster]

Good assessment! I like the 22 mag analogy. May I use that

I spent some time at the "Benning School for Wayward Boys" (fort Benning, GA) a couple years ago on an all expense paid "Educator Tour". I worked with recruiters at the HS I taught at and got 5 days expenses paid! Anyway, I spent some time at the AMTU armory and weapons repair facility had had a great chat with the NCOIC (after he found out I was prior military and 20 LE rangemaster and armorer. Before that he was "Politically correct, thinking I was a liberal teacher)

He said the main problem with the M4 is the short barrel not allowing the 62 gran M855 ball to yaw enough to fragment past about 75 yards, due to decreased velocity. He said the MK262 Mod1 77 grain OT, on the other hand works awesome, but the brass won't change. It was developed by Black Hills for the M249 SAW, but the SF types started experimenting with it. He did not like the 5.7 PDW, either. This guy had a patch on his right shoulder (combat service) and a Combat Infantry badge and was speaking from experience.


Here's me with a 300 Mag back from the "sandbox" for re-barreling. He told the other teachers it was a "target" gun. When they walked off, I said Bull****, that is a "reach out and touch someone weapon" and that target weapons don't have "cans" (suppressors) on the end of the barrel. He looked at me quizzically and asked "And you are sir?" I told him my background, he loosened up, and told me it was a sniper rifle, and had made many happy martyrs in far and distant lands.


Me in a Bradley gunner simulator

Anyway, the point of this rambling story is, the 5.7 isn't what they claim it is, at least according to someone "in the know"

[imarangemaster]

The FN 5.7 will defeat a K-pot also. I thought about buying an upper for one of my ARs chambered in Five-seveN, as they like to call it, but the price tag made me thing otherwize.

At the SO, there were those that said the carbine I qualified was worthless. We inherited some Army Kevlar vest (old style) and PASGT helmets. I used the 30 carbine with 110 SP to go through both sides of the of the PASGT helmet and the old style vest. Several guys went out and got carbines after that!

[Bill Hollinger]

Now there is a happy man! Could you even get a bigger smile on that face?

[jmoore]

Was Dave Luanag (pardon the spelling, I know that's not quite right) in charge of the AMU when you were there?

[imarangemaster]

I really don't recall the name of the guy I talked with. It was March or April 2006.

[imarangemaster]

Now there is a happy man! Could you even get a bigger smile on that face?

Yep, I was smiling pretty big, there. You should have seen me once I mastered the rudimentary basic of the 25mm Bushmaster cannon in the bradley simulator! That weapon REALLY ROCKS! I was taking out trucks and BMPs with it. I think the real deal can switch from HE to depleted plutonium rounds, if I remember right.

Of all the educators on the tour, I was the only person who was even prior service, and only one other (a female History teacher (ex-cop) from my school was the only other one who would even try the simulator.

[Bill Hollinger]

Good times! I went through a SAW course at Hunter Ligget a few years ago and a mile down the road was the Bradley range. Were were given a penny tour and we were allowed to watch the Bradleys train. That was very cool.