What happened to Gutermann?

[Riflechair]

The story is that a German soldier took this Colt 1911A1 from a US soldier (as a war prize) and then had his unit and name nicely engraved into the frame of this 1911A1. Guterman was eventiually relieved of this pistol by a Canadian soldier who took it home with him. This soldier died in Canada 12 years ago and his widow sold it to the owner I obtained it from.

I know, buy the firearm not the story. Regardless if the story is true or not I like it. You will notice that the locations which normally identify the serial number and manufacturer have been milled away for the new engraving.

1st Lt Ernst Gutermann (Goodman = jewish name) 1944
64th Reserve Corps

The D-Day Landings commenced on Tuesday, 6 June 1944, beginning at 6:30 AM British Double Summer Time.

Starting June 15th 1944 the 64th Reserve Corps was attached to the 15th Army Group stationed in Northern France. Previous to this the 64th had been assigned to special service duty. I strongly believe he was a Staff Officer of the Corps Leadership Group but cannot confirm that.

In July 1944 the 64th joined the 1st German Army. Shortly after joining the 1st Army, the LXIV Reserve Korps (64.) became (on August 5th 1944) the LXIV Army Korps (64.)

Following the Normandy invasion in 1944, the 1st Army reorganized in Lorraine after a hasty retreat with the rest of the German forces across France in August 1944. During the battles along the German frontier, the First Army attempted to prevent the Third United States Army from crossing the Moselle River and capturing Metz while also attempting to hold the northern Vosges Mountains against the Seventh United States Army.

In November 1944, both defensive lines were broken and the First Army retreated to the German border and defended the Saarland of Germany, an important industrial region. With the Third U.S. Army engaged to the north against the German Ardennes Offensive, the 1st Army attacked the Seventh U.S. Army on New Year's Day 1945 in Operation Nordwind, causing the Americans to give ground and inflicting significant casualties where Seventh U.S. Army defensive lines were stretched taut by the length of frontage they had to cover. With the failure of Nordwind in late January, the 1st Army was first pushed back to the Siegfried Line and then forced to retreat across the Rhine River when the Allies pierced the German fortifications. Thereafter, the First Army made an ordered withdrawal to the Danube River before surrendering near the Alps on May 6, 1945.

SO WHAT HAPPENED TO GUTERMANN?

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[gunner]

The only way to get out what happend to him is to ask one of our resaerch institutions.
At first the Wehrmachtsauskunftsstelle. Here is a link DEUTSCHE DIENSTSTELLE (WASt)
This is a research center for soldiers of the Wehrmacht. But i dont know how it will work if you ask them and be not a family member.

Regards

Gunner

[Riflechair]

I'm going to pursue that thank you gunner.

[gunner]

If you will not get an answer from them ( it lasts long for 6 - 8 month in case of my grandpa ) there is a other way, but this one will work only if he was KIA. I can do a research there for you if you want.
Forgot to say this before that is a good looking 1911.

Regards

Gunner

[gunner]

A little from the history of the 64. Reserve Korps

Foundet in 1942 in Dijon, France Heeresgruppe D
1944 June, served under the 15. Army, Norhtern France
1944 July, served under the 1. Army, Gironde France
1944 August 5th, changed name into 64. Armeekorps
1944 September, served under the 19. Army, Alsace France
1945 January served, under the 19. Army, Upper Rhine
1945 February, served under the 19. Army and was than deleted in the Wehrmachtsstammrolle

Commanders:
General der Pioniere Karl Sachs Aufstellung - 1. September 1944
General der Infanterie Otto Lasch 1. September 1944 - 1. November 1944
General der Infanterie Hellmuth Thumm 1. November 1944 - 15. Januar 1945
Generalleutnant Friedrich-Wilhelm Hauck 15. Januar 1945 - 21. Januar 1945
General der Artillerie Maximilian Grimmeiß 21. Januar 1945 - 15. April 1945
Generalleutnant Helmuth Friebe 15. April 1945 - April 1945
General der Artillerie Rudolf Freiherr von Roman April 1945 - Capitulation

Regards

Gunner

[Johnny Peppers]

In order to search for Gutermann you have to assume the story is valid. Several things stand out that leaves questions in my mind. Why would a soldier modify a war trophy, and where during the closing days of WWII would he have found a machinist to modify the weapon. The German soldier was not prone to modifying or personalizing their weapons, and the regimental markings do not follow accepted German procedure for these markings. Why remove the model marking even if you wanted to remove the USP and serial number. The maker markings were not removed, as they are on the left side of the slide. Why would a German soldier let himself be captured with a U.S. soldiers pistol that had the German soldier's name added to it?
In the pictures the original serial number appears to have been modified before being milled off. Was this just a way of adding history to an already modified 1911A1?

[gunner]

Good question.

But as always there are two opportunities.
1. This is a fake, the normal short typo of Oberleutnant is Olt. you can take this as an evidence,so its possible. If you take a look at the letters, than you will see that they dont fit right. Now you can say the germans were always precise and cant do such a marking or they took what they had at time.
2. The old way of writing the 64th in german is 64ste. Today it is 64. !
The reason can be that the guy sees it as a trophy and marked it. Also it was free for the officers to carry a personal weapon ( Göring had his S&W)
To find a machinist in the Wehrmacht was not a problem for an officer.

The solution is to find out if he had existed or not.

And why the 64th Reserve Korps? You can earn much more money for the 44th Div. "Hoch- und Deutschmeister" or the 1. Fallschirm-Divison .

But as i said a good Question.

Regards

Gunner

[Riflechair]

I will try to gain access into the Korps History and locate information about their assigned HQ staff. The 64th Army Korps was a very busy unit with ever-changing divisional assignments due the need to refresh bled-out frontline divisions and brigades. Korps personell was always in between 5 to 20 k's behind the frontline. Different with Waffen-SS units which had often Division and/or Korps HQ in or immediatley behind the frontline.

What I'm saying is that there was likely lots of opportunity for a unit such as the 64th to get this done.

[gunner]

Hi Riflechair,

that is heavy work. The 64. Armeekorps had 14 Divisions under service. The Korpstruppen were the ARKO 464 and the Korps-Nachrichten-Kompanie 464.
Wish you good luck! I try to find out the Offiziersstellenbesetzungsliste ( personallist of the officers )

Regards

Gunner

[villiers]

I once had access to the armourer´s shop and used the identity disk stamps on any part of my personal equipment made of metal ... just because I was bored ... personal graffiti. I bet old Oberleutnant Gutman (not really a Jewish name) was bored too.

On the subject of Jewish names, I was at the Parachute Regiment Cemetery at Renville in Normandy a few years back and found a whole group of Scottish names. Was told that they were Jewish and had signed on under assumed names in Scotland in case of capture. French and Germans also buried there but could only find 2 (two!) French graves!