Essay on British army new sniper rifle ....

[arado]

FAL sniper? NO. But in a mixed terrain fluid firefight I prefer my STG58 over any other individual weapon. My substitute standard is the Zastava counter sniper M76 due to the 8mm Mauser chambering. I am in no army NOW . so the choice is mine. Gary

[jmoore]

Ngib, a bit of feedback would be nice. Feel free to jump in! We are, some of us, a bit "crusty", but are willing to help. A bit of harshness now may be best for your end goal.

[villiers]

I also think it´s time to remember that he´s showing interest in a subject that we all spend time in ventilating. And some of our own postings are not always all that clever. `Twas quite a long text and quite some effort must have gone into it. So I´d personally be quite interested in reading a re-worked version into which some of the ideas posted here have been included.

[arado]

Villiers. Are you perchance related to Norton as in "Norton Villiers? Love my Commando 750. Whoops, wrong board.. Gary

[Peter Laidler]

Arado.....Norton Commando 750....... I love you too............ The low grumble reminds me of a Bren

[pathdoc]

If we're going to go the whole hog and argue bigger is better for long, long ranges - doesn't one end up dusting off one's grandfather's .55 Boys ATR?

Ultimately it's going to come down to just how much information you can plug into the optics to align the aiming mark before you pull the trigger. How long will it be before the fellow behind the sniper scope is no longer an infantryman but an inheritor of the methods of the Royal Garrison Artillery, with a bastardized gyro gunsight atop his rifle into which he plugs latitude, longitude, barometric pressure, etc. etc. etc., before letting loose the shot? Or, even more sophisticated, fires a laser pulse and uses expected vs. actual diffraction of the return to determine what the atmosphere between him and the target is doing, while his GPS pinpoints his location to correct for the Coriolis Effect and another attachment reads his MV from shot to shot and enables him to correct for where he is vs. where the ammo was proof-shot?

What might 90 years ago have been done with a rifleman and a meteorologist with a Barr & Stroud rangefinder, a barometer and a slide rule will one day be done with something deceptively small that sits upon the rifle of the day, but whatever it is will still have to have half-decent ballistics for adequate retained energy in that thousand-yard-plus shot.

Even with that sort of help, one size never fits all - the infantryman doesn't want to shoot a .338 Lapua on full auto in an urban battle (though the stopping power and penetration would be unargued), and the long-range shot doesn't want to strain to put a 5.56mm bullet on target at ten times the distance and go away hoping his target is unlucky enough to die of their wounds.

Until we have truly man-portable infantry laser weapons, where we can put a dot on our target to sight and then crank it up at once to burn their brain out, we're doomed to keep having this argument. But it's a fun one to have.

[hockeybuff]

Ngib:
Please don't take our comments too negatively. You are talking to a bunch of people with opinions and knowledge (?). But it is also a technical question you've posed.
If you have some follow up questions, please ask. You'll get some different opinions but hopefully they can help you....

[hockeybuff]

A very interesting thread – a question/comment or two from one with no expertise in sniping – so the following is not intended as ‘knocking’:-

1. Was/is ‘intelligence and gathering information’ a secondary role for snipers – I would have thought it of equal importance in the overall picture.
2. Given the differing situations faced by police marksmen (records of actual use!) and forces snipers, would it be reasonable to opine that police needs are very much less demanding than those of forces.
3. Designing a sniper rifle to cope with the differing requirements of Ypres/Normandy/Aden/Korea/Belfast/Kosovo/Iraq/Afghanistan/future! is always going to be a compromise of sorts.
4. Does a well-designed semi-auto exceed the accuracy of a well-designed bolt-action rifle?
5. I can see the advantages of a semi-auto at closer ranges (say up to 3-500 yds) – but less convinced for 1000yds.
6. I know nothing of the much-reviled SA80 but was told last week by a non-combatant user that the latest version was (at last) a good weapon?
7. And finally presumably there are statistics for historically effective sniper distances/situations etc. Are we designing a single shot 1000yd instrument to deal with 95/300yd opportunities and 5/1000yd chances?

Regards
John


John-- I wanted to answer some of your questions so......


John and Ngib....
As I and Peter point out the needs of Military vs Police are quite different. While I was in the US Army, I had no real experience with them. The police though, I feel I can maybe? hopefully? give you some insight to. My 0.02$ is based on the 15yrs I've worked on a mid to large US Police Department. Our SWAT team deploys, on average, 2-3 times a week and "uses deadly force" maybe 1-2 a year. I've trained with them and attended several police sniper courses. Because of my training, when our units work together, I end up working with them. (Mainly because I'd like to end up there...)
So for the police:
1. That is easily 90% of what they do. ie. A person is barricaded in a house. They will set up around it (relatively near- across the street say) and use their optics to look in and monitor the suspect. But not just the suspect, they will also look at the interior of the house for a layout or doors/obstacles etc.
2.It depends on what you mean by demanding. There is no doubt the distance is much shorter. As I said the average in the US is 77 yards and watching the deployments confirm that closeness. The demand for a 100% immediate incapacitation is not. If the sniper is used, by definition, he is shooting to end the immediate threat of the suspect using deadly force against another. That means the shot must end the situation and wounding or missing the suspect won't do that. There are too many examples of wounded suspects then harming victims or continuing to fight.
3. Valid point, more for the military. BTW- our standard rifle is the Remington 700 in 308 firing the Federal Gold Medal 168gr cartridge. That is what most PD's use.
4.and 5. I would say no. Some may get comparable but not better and you get back into the argument raised in 3. You can think of situation where one might be more useful than the other but the semi's certainly don't exceed the bolts in accuracy. IMHO.
6-7. Back to the military.

Hope this helps......

[villiers]

Villiers. Are you perchance related to Norton as in "Norton Villiers? Love my Commando 750. Whoops, wrong board.. Gary

There´s a rumour in the family that there might be some connection to the makers of that abominable two smoke, so it might just be genetics that I´m a dedicated two wheel addict .... CCM 644 Sumo.

[trooper554877]

The aussie Army along with the brits have gone to the 338 because the AW 50 is too f....g heavy to carry long distances on a patrol or stalk. The aussies have gone to a Blazer 3 in 338 Lapua mag because it can be easily somewhat resently be carried for a long distance on foot if required. It also gives them that 1000+ yardage reach out and touch someone kinda feeling. In all the sniper training i came across they where never trained to rattle of 50 rds in a firefight. Thats the number 2's job with the M4 or SR25 or whatever the fella desires. the SR25 is the 7.62 choice at the moment with the SR98 as well.

So to say that we grab grandads boyes out of the armoury is purely whimsical thinking and not a understanding of what a sniper is trained to do.
Cheers
NED