"ZF" marking on Enfields?

[John R.]

Hello Ed:

This was related to me by a now deceased Canadian Army RCEME Armourer late of Truro Nova Scotia.Elliot Campbell was his name and he was a truly lovely man as well as a well of information.

In brief Elliot joined the Canadian Army and was a RCEME Armourer BEFORE WWII was declared in 1939.

Most of us CANADIAN Enfield "Nuts" have two"holy grails" as it were.The First being an unfiddled with Long Branch No4MkI(NO STAR) and the other being a Long Branch No4MkI*T.I am lucky enought to have both.

It seems that in early 1945 a"Change Order" was issued down the Canadian Army's chain of command that mandated the CONVERSION of ALL UNIT HELD No4MkI rifles to No4MkI* status.According to Elliot unit level armourers HAD the necessary fixtures to effect the change too.You were to DISASSEMBLE any No4mkI rifles down into their component parts and then TRANSFER all the parts(obviously NOT the bolt catch etc) to a brand new and un-numbered No4MkI* receiver and then RENUMBER the new receiver to the OL or 1L number and after it passed all inspections return the rifle to unit stocks of SERVICEABLE Rifles.The now stripped No4MkI receivers were to be either destroyed or returned to Ordnance for disposition.

No25 CAOD was Canada's CENTRAL Ordnance Depot at the time I was posted there to "acquire" the necessary skills" to be our Unit Armourer as a 15 year old Reservist(MILITIA) in the Victoria Rifles of Canada.I came in on a waiver being UNDER the age of 17 the normal age for attestation with parental consent.By age 17 I was an Officer Cadet in McGill University's COTC.I REALLY ENJOYED my summer at No 25 and learned a lot the 'hard way'.we were ALL volunteers and the WO I was a PRINCE(provided you DID YOUR WORK to HIS STANDARDS.I had to get up at 04:30 to catch a bus at )5:00 into Montreal from our home on Montreal Island's FAR Western Lakeshore.Once I hit Montreal I transferred to ANOTHER bus which headed out along Notre Dame St EAST to the far reaches of EAST Montreal Island at Longue Pointe where No25 CAOD was situated.Four PLUS hours in transit every day PLUS anything we had going at the Victoria Rifles on week nights and weekends.At CDN$3.14 per diem I wasn't getting rich.Being in uniform and posessing travel orders etc I am GLAD I wasn't paying bus fares I assure you.

We DID have No4MkI* receivers,Sten (MkII Mag Housings) Bren MkI and MkII receivers and Border City Industries M1919A4 Receivers ALL of which were UN-numbered spare parts.Same story with FRAMES(boxes stated BODY) for the No2MkI* Pistols. Now that I think about it I am sure that I still have a No25 CAOD box for a No4MkI* receiver in my stash of No4 parts.I'll try to dig it out and see if a friend can photograph the label for posterity's sake here.

All I did as a unit level armourer was keep our unit small arms in condition for periodic ordnance inspections ALL of which I passed with flying colours.I was also on the rifle team with Sgt Tommy Richardson as NCOIC and our mentor in all things pertaining to shooting.I miss him too as he died about two years ago.Thankfully not before I was able to buy all his barrelling fixtures and tooling.As a result I can rebarrel anything from a LE or LEC 1 to a C No4MkI* with all the correct wrenches and clamps etc.

So,as can be seen UNITS did have the equipment and experise AND the spare receivers to effect transfers of serviceable parts from one receiver to another at various points.Canada had HUGE stocks of spares for small arms like Thompson SMG's and M1 Rifles and Carbines at No25 CAOD when I was there too.The Air Force at Trenton had their equivalent of No 25 with tons of things like brand new Royal Typewriter M1918A2 BARs too.

I built for myself WITH permission from on high(the WOI i/c) a WINCHESTER M1 Garand and a M2 Carbine(NO FA Parts on board) after the WO I gave me the receivers(numbered to be sure) and a chit to get the parts from the tool crib.I still have a No25 CAOD box of M1 Rifle WINDAGE knobs that came back to Canada from Denmark in 1999.I can safely assume that Canada shipped all or most of it's M1 Rifle spares to Denmark under the NATO agreements.

I have also seen barrelling equipment for No4's as well as C1A1 rifles at places like CFB Chilliwack in the early 1980's so never say never is probably best.

Bedtime here,

Cheers,

John R.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[limpetmine]

This is a great snippet story about the Long Branch No4Mk1. Is there anyway this order might be found in print? I would assume that the numbers of LB Mk1's in existent today is much less, than, then the 10,000-14,000 thousand produced. I have not seen or heard of a renumbered Mk1* with a 0L or 1L serial as of yet, but that proves nothing. This subject deserves a thread of it's own. I have two Mk1's, one 0L and a 1L.
and share your "grail" gratification.

Hello Ed:

This was related to me by a now deceased Canadian Army RCEME Armourer late of Truro Nova Scotia.Elliot Campbell was his name and he was a truly lovely man as well as a well of information.

In brief Elliot joined the Canadian Army and was a RCEME Armourer BEFORE WWII was declared in 1939.

Most of us CANADIAN Enfield "Nuts" have two"holy grails" as it were.The First being an unfiddled with Long Branch No4MkI(NO STAR) and the other being a Long Branch No4MkI*T.I am lucky enought to have both.

It seems that in early 1945 a"Change Order" was issued down the Canadian Army's chain of command that mandated the CONVERSION of ALL UNIT HELD No4MkI rifles to No4MkI* status.According to Elliot unit level armourers HAD the necessary fixtures to effect the change too.You were to DISASSEMBLE any No4mkI rifles down into their component parts and then TRANSFER all the parts(obviously NOT the bolt catch etc) to a brand new and un-numbered No4MkI* receiver and then RENUMBER the new receiver to the OL or 1L number and after it passed all inspections return the rifle to unit stocks of SERVICEABLE Rifles.The now stripped No4MkI receivers were to be either destroyed or returned to Ordnance for disposition.

No25 CAOD was Canada's CENTRAL Ordnance Depot at the time I was posted there to "acquire" the necessary skills" to be our Unit Armourer as a 15 year old Reservist(MILITIA) in the Victoria Rifles of Canada.I came in on a waiver being UNDER the age of 17 the normal age for attestation with parental consent.By age 17 I was an Officer Cadet in McGill University's COTC.I REALLY ENJOYED my summer at No 25 and learned a lot the 'hard way'.we were ALL volunteers and the WO I was a PRINCE(provided you DID YOUR WORK to HIS STANDARDS.I had to get up at 04:30 to catch a bus at )5:00 into Montreal from our home on Montreal Island's FAR Western Lakeshore.Once I hit Montreal I transferred to ANOTHER bus which headed out along Notre Dame St EAST to the far reaches of EAST Montreal Island at Longue Pointe where No25 CAOD was situated.Four PLUS hours in transit every day PLUS anything we had going at the Victoria Rifles on week nights and weekends.At CDN$3.14 per diem I wasn't getting rich.Being in uniform and posessing travel orders etc I am GLAD I wasn't paying bus fares I assure you.

We DID have No4MkI* receivers,Sten (MkII Mag Housings) Bren MkI and MkII receivers and Border City Industries M1919A4 Receivers ALL of which were UN-numbered spare parts.Same story with FRAMES(boxes stated BODY) for the No2MkI* Pistols. Now that I think about it I am sure that I still have a No25 CAOD box for a No4MkI* receiver in my stash of No4 parts.I'll try to dig it out and see if a friend can photograph the label for posterity's sake here.

All I did as a unit level armourer was keep our unit small arms in condition for periodic ordnance inspections ALL of which I passed with flying colours.I was also on the rifle team with Sgt Tommy Richardson as NCOIC and our mentor in all things pertaining to shooting.I miss him too as he died about two years ago.Thankfully not before I was able to buy all his barrelling fixtures and tooling.As a result I can rebarrel anything from a LE or LEC 1 to a C No4MkI* with all the correct wrenches and clamps etc.

So,as can be seen UNITS did have the equipment and experise AND the spare receivers to effect transfers of serviceable parts from one receiver to another at various points.Canada had HUGE stocks of spares for small arms like Thompson SMG's and M1 Rifles and Carbines at No25 CAOD when I was there too.The Air Force at Trenton had their equivalent of No 25 with tons of things like brand new Royal Typewriter M1918A2 BARs too.

I built for myself WITH permission from on high(the WOI i/c) a WINCHESTER M1 Garand and a M2 Carbine(NO FA Parts on board) after the WO I gave me the receivers(numbered to be sure) and a chit to get the parts from the tool crib.I still have a No25 CAOD box of M1 Rifle WINDAGE knobs that came back to Canada from Denmark in 1999.I can safely assume that Canada shipped all or most of it's M1 Rifle spares to Denmark under the NATO agreements.

I have also seen barrelling equipment for No4's as well as C1A1 rifles at places like CFB Chilliwack in the early 1980's so never say never is probably best.

Bedtime here,

Cheers,

John R.

[Son]

I have begun the inspection process as best as I am able in the hope to find something to indicate why my rifle is marked ZF. I have decided at this point, from the information in this thread and the posting from Peter on DP rifles that I will not be firing this one anyway, as the probability of it being ok is getting less as I get further into it. Looking at the fact the foreend is numbered to the rifle, and the butt is a good colour and grain match to the foreend, I must assume it is original to the rifle. I managed to track down the previous owner, he had neither altered nor fired it while in his possession. He said it had come from a re-enactor who used it as a rifle scabbard filler, and unlikely he had fired it either.

In service life, everything except the receiver are replaceable parts. The "ZF" must be related to the receiver. Excessive headspace, and therefore worn locking lugs are not the problem. It headspaces as good with it's #1 bolthead. In the next day or two I will examine it very closely under a magnifying glass and good light. Until then, here's a couple of unusual things I found (maybe someone can help me out with the markings?)

There has been a wooden block inset into the foreend under the barrel reinforce. Maybe Peter can confirm it as the type of thing that might be done by an armourer to get the bedding right- maybe it's common- (this is my first No4).
The R side of the receiver is marked C28 under the wood line. There is another mark on the butt socket, L side under the serial. It looks like C (or G) and 30 (could be wrong there too- will double check tomorrow.
Pics below.

Any and all comments welcome.

[Thunderbox]

Peter,

Just to dig a bit further:

Was there any sort of universal policy to preserve salvageable rifle parts when ZF-ing a rifle, or was it normal for the whole thing to be chucked away?

E.g. stamping "ZF" on a butt is presumably going to lead to that butt being scrapped as well as the receiver - whereas stamping "ZF" on the actual receiver would ensure the receiver was scrapped, but would not necessarily condemn the other component parts.


Without intending to throw fuel on the barby, I've seen a couple of rifles like Son's - "ZF" on the butt, but absolutely nothing to indicate any sort of damage. One was clearly "FTR-mint-in-cosmoline" condition, evidently surplussed out from some country's holdings. I did wonder whether there is another type of "ZF" (property mark?) floating around out there - maybe a cousin of the mysterious "FR".....

[Son]

Peter,

Just to dig a bit further:

Was there any sort of universal policy to preserve salvageable rifle parts when ZF-ing a rifle, or was it normal for the whole thing to be chucked away?

E.g. stamping "ZF" on a butt is presumably going to lead to that butt being scrapped as well as the receiver - whereas stamping "ZF" on the actual receiver would ensure the receiver was scrapped, but would not necessarily condemn the other component parts.


Without intending to throw fuel on the barby, I've seen a couple of rifles like Son's - "ZF" on the butt, but absolutely nothing to indicate any sort of damage. One was clearly "FTR-mint-in-cosmoline" condition, evidently surplussed out from some country's holdings. I did wonder whether there is another type of "ZF" (property mark?) floating around out there - maybe a cousin of the mysterious "FR".....

I'll chip in here to start with an bit from Peter's earlier posting where he says that harvested parts go through a process before being re-issued. I get the drift from his post that a butt would not get through with the ZF still on it- just think, the first person to look at the rifle would have to send it for scrap...

Here's the entire bit concerned...

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Now, the mystery of the ZF butts on ‘good’ rifles. I’ll ask you the obvious question with a statement first. Do YOU or your gunsmith have the gauging and examination kit that we have at even the lowest echelon unit Armourers shop? I doubt it but you never know… So the question is ‘just how do YOU know that the butt has been changed? The answer is that you don’t. Try to understand when I read constantly that the ZF butt has been changed! If it has, then remove the bloody ZF and be done with it. But don't let it stand there chuckling at you like a set of Christmas lights.

Jona is NEARLY right about us using our kit over again. When your rifle goes back to Ordnance as a ‘scrapper (or a ZF in Armourers language ……get it…., it’s that word again…?) it is disposed of by torch or gulllotine as a whole complete unit or sale as scrap to some dealer who wants to earn a fast buck. Some parts are cannibalized and returned to store but they go through a RSSD, attached to a REME workshops – again! That’s a ‘returned stores sub-depot’ for you non Armourers, where the parts are examined, tumbled etc etc etc parkerised and painted to new condition and re-packaged, returned to the shelf and re-issued in the fullness of time with the packaging marked PW (for Part Worn). That’s where we get our reconditioned engines and refurbished Bren gun butt slide assemblies, right down to foresight protector screws. But all ASSEMBLIES, and major parts, like Bren barrels, breech blocks and the like are re-packaged and it is made clear on the packaging that they are re-worked parts. They are sent out again like NEW. Can you imagine a reworked butt being sent through the system still bearing the ZF paint on it. Just think of the confusion…………… Come on!

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Mine fits your description. Immaculate, all matching with grease under the wood! Unless something was done in Canada which Peter is unaware of, but then, mine is painted, not blued- a trait I understand indicates some re-work in Gt Britain, but no markings evident.

Still, in the absence of irrefutable conclusive evidence to the contrary, mine is a wallhanger.