303 sniper

[Rowdy]

I saw a grey painted one for sale here in Australia several years ago.

[jmoore]

hello Peter Laidler and jmoore
would you consider my rifle to be a fake. should i have it rebleued or leave it as is the gray coulor , should i try to swap for a mk 2 scope
regards steve

Nothing so far screams fake, but (just my opinion)the gray paint ought to go. I'd carefully strip it to see what's underneath. If there's a half decent finish left, leave it! Refinish as a last option. Unless you can round up the scope that went with it originally it probably won't matter if its a Mk1.

I'd swap you my Mk2, but its the only one I have and its very happy on its current (mismatched to it) rifle. Now if it was S/N 5966(?) or 124 then I'd beat the doors down! Please don't tempt me too much though... Not sure from your original post whether the bracket matches the receiver number, I wouldn't swap off that part, but they're usually quite well staked. Have you looked at "Angel's" matchmaking forum on this site?

BTW There's internet in TN! And been up 23 hours straight -again...

[sjt351]

hello peter and jmoore
thank you both for your help
jmoore if you ever want to swap your mk2 for a mk1 please let me know
all the best for the new year steve

[Surpmil]

Thought I might upset you there for a minute, but it was 9765 that I had, on checking!

I rather doubt many or even any Mk3 scopes saw service before the war's end BTW. The MkI's and Mk2's were on issue and we know how the QM types think...

[Surpmil]

Actually, I know of two early '44 rifles that apparently were fitted w/ No.32 Mk.1 scopes at H&H, but may have been pulled from earlier rifles. They are matching, but its an odd thing. One would have been a fluke, but 2? Makes me wonder if some trials rifles got robbed or something... but its a whole different subject. Waiting for some more evidence.

Never say never...

What makes you think the scopes were used when fitted?

Of course in 40 odd years of subsequent service lots of swapping around happened.

[No4Mk1(T)]

as the telescopes went to H&H straight from the makers, it's unlikely that they'd be wildly out of sequence.

Not wishing to show any disrespect or contradict you Peter but I have something you might find interesting on this subject.
Over the last year I have owned 3 late war No4T’s all fitted with Taylor-Hobson scopes. One was dated 1944 and the other 2 1945. Of the 3 the highest scope serial number is on my “U” prefixed 1945. The next highest was on my 1944? This prompted me to start a small survey of publicly posted serial numbers on matching examples fitted with Taylor-Hobson scopes. To date I’ve run across 7 rifles so far. As you can see below the rifles serial number and scope serial numbers do not clime sequentially with each other. Again I want to add these numbers were found on publicly posted photos of matching No4T’s. I have xx’ed out the last digits of the serial numbers to protect the owners of these rifles however. I believe the 1946 dated rifle to actually be a 1944.

Year, Rifle Serial Number, Scope Serial Number, Scope Maker,
1944 C37xxx 250xx Taylor-Hobson
1944 C37xxx 244xx Taylor-Hobson
1944 M30xxx 244xx Taylor-Hobson
1944 R33xxx 247xx Taylor-Hobson
1945 T33xxx 241xx Taylor-Hobson
1945 U34xxx 250xx Taylor-Hobson
1946 ? F35xxx 246xx Taylor-Hobson


Now on the subject of the Grey paint. In the posted photos the shade looks very similar to the Grey Teflon applied to the Ingles Mk2* 9mm HP pistols reputedly done in Belgium. Did they do this to any of their other arms?

[jmoore]

What makes you think the scopes were used when fitted?

Of course in 40 odd years of subsequent service lots of swapping around happened.

As far as one example goes; mostly the faded scope finish as compared to the rifle's finish, which is quite good - the electropenciled markings are turning brownish, but no "bluing" or paint ever was in the lettering. I have good reason to believe its as assembled by H&H, but it surely struck me as being a wee bit strange when I first saw it!

Granted, the rifles and scopes don't seem to "age" equally if they are in other than crispy, new condition. However, NIB stuff doesn't interest me as much, so I've learned to pay attention to tell-tale usage (and "humpage") signs. Still learning, though!

[No4Mk1(T)]

OK with the kind help of Lance I have two more numbers to add to my small survey.
1944 B35324 with 24983
1945 V36106 with 24479
Thank You very much Lance!
In my PM to him I mentioned I was considering taking on the job of a full sized No4T serial number survey to which he reacted quite positively. To this end I have decided to take on the project. I don’t wish to further hijack this thread so please don’t forward any numbers to me just yet. I wish to develop the spread sheet and come up with the goals of the survey as well as consult with Badger first. I will start a new thread with in the next week or so assuming this all meats with Badgers approval.

[jmoore]

Refreshing sjt351's thread as it ties into the "Grey No.4" thread.

Link here for more info on the ~neutral grey painted No.4 rifles:

Grey No 4

---------- Post added at 03:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:03 AM ----------

The grey paint WAS added later, as further investigation has shown. It was "correct" for '60s Belgian Army use but not "original" to the rifle. It likely left Hollands' with a blued finish- seems too early for Brunofix. If FTR'd at any point, it likely had Suncorite under the grey paint, and should still be intact.

I reckon my opinion is worth what you paid, unfortunately! Whether removing the grey paint hurt the value of the rifle is a whole 'nuther question. If done properly, I shouldn't think there would be much harm done (unless you are Belgian.)

ETA: Just sharing the cumulative opinions- I believe Peter Laidler's words carry a lot more weight than mine!:

If it came into our workshops, as many did, painted in kakhi or camouflaged, the it'd be stripped back and made good. So if I was you, I'd have it degreased and painted with the standard British Army sunkorite paint, oven baked for a few hours, greased and assembled then put back in its chest or into the armoury. That's as original as it gets.

[Rowdy]

Would this be a Belgian chest?