303 sniper

[sjt351]

i have just purchased a no4 mk1 T sniper rifle 1944 shirly,it has a no32 mk1 scope not matching to rifle,is this important to value of gun , the rifle has all correct marks and matching numbers. the barrell,mag,reciever and other fittings are gray in coulor not the blued is this normal
any comments would be appreiated
regards steve

Information

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[spinecracker]

Photos would help those knowledgeable on this topic

[Badger]

Hi ...

Here's a link to a Q&A thread that may help you get more answers and improve the quality of the ones you do get.

What can you tell me about my rifle? (click here)

Also, check the 1944 Enfield No.4 Mk1(T) Sniper Rifle (Mfg by BSA Shirley - M47c) displayed in the England - Milsurp Knowledge Library.

Perhaps compare all the markings on your No.4(T) against it, which may help you somewhat to ascertain correctness.

Regards,
Badger

[sjt351]

thanks for your help.i will post some pics soon as i work out how [newto forum] regards steve

[gunner]

Look at here.
How do I post pics? - A tutorial by Wally - Military Surplus Collectors Forums

Regards

Gunner

[bradtx]

Steve, At Hollands' the metal was refinished in a process called brunofixing, which as I understand it, is similar to, but predates parkerizing.

Value to the strict collector is always diminished if non matching parts are employed in No.4(T) kit. A '44 production rifle, depending when H&H did the conversion would have a Mk.2, Mk.2/1 or a Mk.3 'scope...depending on what was in stock. Mk.1 'scopes are desireable to those with earlier (T)s and can be traded.

Brad

[jmoore]

Actually, I know of two early '44 rifles that apparently were fitted w/ No.32 Mk.1 scopes at H&H, but may have been pulled from earlier rifles. They are matching, but its an odd thing. One would have been a fluke, but 2? Makes me wonder if some trials rifles got robbed or something... but its a whole different subject. Waiting for some more evidence.

Never say never...

[Surpmil]

Actually, I know of two early '44 rifles that apparently were fitted w/ No.32 Mk.1 scopes at H&H, but may have been pulled from earlier rifles. They are matching, but its an odd thing. One would have been a fluke, but 2? Makes me wonder if some trials rifles got robbed or something... but its a whole different subject. Waiting for some more evidence.

Never say never...

What makes you think the scopes were used when fitted?

Of course in 40 odd years of subsequent service lots of swapping around happened.

[jmoore]

What makes you think the scopes were used when fitted?

Of course in 40 odd years of subsequent service lots of swapping around happened.

As far as one example goes; mostly the faded scope finish as compared to the rifle's finish, which is quite good - the electropenciled markings are turning brownish, but no "bluing" or paint ever was in the lettering. I have good reason to believe its as assembled by H&H, but it surely struck me as being a wee bit strange when I first saw it!

Granted, the rifles and scopes don't seem to "age" equally if they are in other than crispy, new condition. However, NIB stuff doesn't interest me as much, so I've learned to pay attention to tell-tale usage (and "humpage") signs. Still learning, though!

[Peter Laidler]

The telescopes were examined at the makers, passed and transported directly to H&H in corrugated cardboard boxes, protected with rolls of corrugated cardboard. Each box contained, so far as Sid Harvey remembered, about 30 telescopes. And the hard cardboard boxes all went back too! Such was the dire need!

He didn't remember anything about the different mark of scopes but suffice it to say, as the telescopes went to H&H straight from the makers, it's unlikely that they'd be wildly out of sequence. I dare say that some telescopes were diverted at the factories to Weedon as simple spares stockholdings. Big sacking material bags of leather eyecaps were also supplied directly and these came in the Royal Mail no less......, being pretty light I would assume. These were fitted at the end of the line, after the out-inspection.

As a matter of interest, when we had telescopes available from Ordnance as replacements as and when the need arose, they came in a little cloth bag with a fold-in top, approx 3.5" wide by the length of the telescope. You could JUST fit a telescope plus bracket at a squeeze but they didn't come with the bracket. The cloth bags were a very tough but rough off white/pale cream colour material that I think was called 'sailcloth' They were wrapped with a piece of string on which the little OHMS label was tied. Sometimes, the telescope number was stencilled on the bag. I wonder if they were supplied to Ordnance in these bags.............

There, another little bit of useless Enfield info