Greek Return Garand Collectability ?

[22mike]

Do you think the CMP Greek Return M1 Garands with the black park will have any collector value ???

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[Bodyman]

While all Garands have a component of collectability regardless, it almost goes without saying that collectors want the most original items they can find - original finishes and condition are paramount with them.

As long as there are a pretty good supply of the excellent condition, original finish rifles coming to market, the Greek reparked wifles will be a bit stagnant below them. Once these really crispy ones dry up again, these good solid rifles will be free to flow with market demand. Reenactors really don't want to haul a mint original rifle around with them so they are looking more for a profile and they will always have a value there. Shooters would rather have excellent finish, freshly done or otherwise, than a partial original finish.

If current tastes persist, which no one can predict, the reparked or rebuilt rifles will always remain below the original rifles. It doesn't mean they are worthless, it means they will not attain the highest level of collectability and will simply trade at a lower price. But if the emphasis of owners down the road becomes more of a shooting use then the gone over, new from rebuild rifles may (likely) rise to levels we cannot anticipate today. For example, when the Danish rifles returned, folks were rather down on the VAR barreled rifles until they realized that they were some of the better shooting Garands they had encountered. The result is that now a nice VAR barreled rifle can sell for top buck (and quite honestly, I don't see them sell very often ...).

To answer the question a little bit better; collectability? Not really, at least not today. Value, especially for shooters? Lots of great bargains in that group.

AMHO.

[Bob Womack]

Agreeing with Bodyman, when I was looking for my first Garand, I was torn between an excellent shooter with wood and finish in excellent condition and an historical rifle. Budget was a factor, so the two mindsets competing within me were
1. desiring to see what a young enlistee drew from the armory in WWII (which were often brand new rifles), and
2. wanting a rifle that actually fought some of those battles (these days they are often worn, rebuilt, re-parked, with mixed parts).

What does that mean? There are folks out there who want good-looking, reasonably inexpensive rifles and are willing to pay a little premium to get one and there are the more hard-core collectors. The future of collectability, aka resale value, rides in the market of potential buyers at any given moment.

Bob

[Bodyman]

does that make me an elf?

[Bob Womack]

does that make me an elf?

You and me both.

[ap3572001]

Agreeing with Bodyman, when I was looking for my first Garand, I was torn between an excellent shooter with wood and finish in excellent condition and an historical rifle. Budget was a factor, so the two mindsets competing within me were
1. desiring to see what a young enlistee drew from the armory in WWII (which were often brand new rifles), and
2. wanting a rifle that actually fought some of those battles (these days they are often worn, rebuilt, re-parked, with mixed parts).

What does that mean? There are folks out there who want good-looking, reasonably inexpensive rifles and are willing to pay a little premium to get one and there are the more hard-core collectors. The future of collectability, aka resale value, rides in the market of potential buyers at any given moment.

Bob

Bob. There are several Garand markets. At least where I live... ( SF Bay Area). 1). There are TRUE collectors of ORIGINAL or CORRECT guns. They never shoot them , don't really care how they shoot. As long as they are really CORRECT. 2). There are people who like to own Garands that were tunned and /or rebuild by KNOWN Garand shops. Milltech, Deans etc. They really want the best shooting and looking Garand. They DO NOT care about matching parts and refinishing. They want accuracy and looks. Some of those folks spend MORE on their guns than collectors do.
3). There are others who want a Garand that is only as original as it would have been issued to a soldier.( a typical service grade CMP gun). 4). There are some who view a Garand as a WEAPON. Those folks put function and function only as the most important.

The same way as some people collect original 1911's and some collect 1911's tunned by Bob Chow, Clark Sr, Jim Hoag. Both are collectors.

[DTC]

Has my Greek return got what's considered the "black" parkerizing?

It doesn't appear especially black (as in the photos posted above)- and it doesn't appear especially greeen, either.



Personally, I bought my Greek because it was in such fine shape compared to the beaters I was seeing- and because I could afford it, and wanted to shoot it.

Do I still want an original, period-correct USGI Garand, you betcha!

-Mike

[hammonje]

Personally, I don't like the look of the light park....I prefer the dark park. I also am much more interested in the condition of the rifle than the correctness. I never got caught up in trying to make my rifles original, I was more worried about trying to shoot X's and 10's with them at Garand matches. I am a shooter and so look more for quality in the metal, barrel, and USGI wood. I am big on the wood being at least USGI though.

All Garands have collectability, Greek returns just have additional history beyond serving in WWII and/or Korea. Another chapter of use and even more history behind them. I am not trying to get rich from my lot of 6 CMP Garands. I know for a fact that none of them will have original barrels in five or so years, b/c I will have shot them out. They will be passed to my children or family anyway.

[togor]

Has my Greek return got what's considered the "black" parkerizing?

That looks USGI to me. The Greek process is a bluing, not a parkerizing, and they dunk them in a tank without doing disassembly on small parts. I just cleaned up a HRA SG that had the original barrel in good condition that had received the greek dunk. Here were a couple of clues:

1) breech was blued, not in the white as it came from HRA

2) clip latch pin was kind of goobered up in the 3 1/2" length of run inside the clip latch (bluing solution tends to accumulate in there). Required a number of doses of penetrating oil + heating to free up the pin

3) features of the T105E1 sight that are normally left in the white were not so much in this case. It appears the greeks do not remove sights before the dunk (and you would not really expect them to anyway)

I think also the op rod catch, follower, bullet guide and follower arm were left on the rifle as well, but it is harder to say with those parts. I think they removed the wood because the front handguard liner metal was not dark, and the lower band was not refinished. It showed signs of carelessness in stock removal and was pinned in a somewhat slipshod manner with a solid pin that was not fully seated. I do not believe that on their worst day the CMP would do such a thing.

This rifle had a refinished SA op rod, but a late SA bolt (A15) that had not been dunked. The stock was HRA with a 3/8" DAS, and an all-HRA trigger group that also had not been refinished. I'm guessing that if they refinished bolts they did not strip them first, and so one would have to carefully inspect all moving parts on the bolt for crud.

Overall the rifle is pretty solid. I like the slimmer profile of the early HRA stocks. The gas cylinder and op rod piston measure up to have a lot of life left, so I'd rate it mechanically above average for a SG, with the negative of the greek bluing. But as I was more interested in function and wear than finish in this case, I'm happy with the mail order result.

[Kirk]

There are many kinds of collectors!

There are the Purists who want a rifle in pristine condition just as it left the maker with every part "original" to that rifle.

There are those who want their rifle to be Correct, every part identical to a part that was originally on the rifle (even if they had to swap parts off of 10 other rifles to get them.)

There are Historical Era collectors who want a M1841 rifle as it was used in 1862 (but not 1863) and accepts modifications and added parts as long as it is part their Era.

There are Historical Place collectors who want a rifle used on Utah Beach and doesn't care how correct or original the parts are.

There are collectors who are shooters who prize function & accuracy above all else.

There are collectors in between and part of these categories (& others).

Each evaluates a particular rifle in light of their own preferences.

The Greek return Garand will always have it's niche; as Bodyman and others point out, their value will be lower that a pristine rifle (Condition is everything, someone once said) but they will always be an Authentic Greek return Garand as their ancestry can be traced through the CMP. That adds a bit of uniqueness to them.

When the Greek Garands & 1903s were being sold by the CMP, there were lots of Want to Buy ads such as "WTB good Garand wood to replace ugly Greek take off" and "WTS: Ugly Greek Garand stock set, $5 with metal; seller will split shipping".

By 2020, I expect to see the following WTB add: "WTB original Greek Garand stock set. Must be original garish orange color; no restained or sanded stocks considered. Will pay $350 for a good set; will pay a premium for oversize wood.