Mk4 Butt Plate

[peregrinvs]

Hi,

I'm idly curious when the above - the flat butt plate for the Mk2 butt - was introduced? Is it a WWII or postwar item? It doesn't appear to be listed in the Skennerton SAIS.

Thanks,
Mark

Information

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[Peter Laidler]

I couldn't find a change point for it when I was looking but it was certainly approved............ The (very slight) modification to the butt to accept the flat butt plate was in the EMER. Generally, we only had Mk3 Brens as service guns with the exception of the Mobat anti tank guns which for some reason had Mk2's as ranging guns. I only ever saw the flat butt plates in UK service except on the DP guns. The reason why the .303" Bren was retained in this role was because the trajectory equated to the 120mm Mobat round whereas the 7.62mm bullet '...........sort of' matched it.....if you were blind and it was dark

The Bren ranging guns fitted to the Mobats were called suicide guns and the story was that as soon as you got the range with the Bren tracer and hit the enemy tank with it, you then proceeded to send the tank to valhalla with the monster 120mm mobat round. Then, just before the other enemy tanks turned their main armament onto the huge flash given off by the back blast of the Mobat, you quietly turned the Bren onto yourselves. Thank heavens for MILAN and JAVELIN now!

[peregrinvs]

The (very slight) modification to the butt to accept the flat butt plate was in the EMER.

Ah. For variety I was thinking of putting one (should I bump into one for sale) on the butt of my Monotype MkII, but I don't want to make any permanent alterations to the woodwork. What does the slight modification consist of?

Thank heavens for MILAN and JAVELIN now!

Coincidentally I've just finished reading the memoir of a chap in 3 PARA who commanded a Milan detachment in the Falklands. Despite much effort carting the kit about, they only got to fire it a few times in anger during the Battle of Mount Longdon. The first time they fired it, the rocket misfired and headed off into the sky - presumably the Argentinian it had been aimed at was praying REALLY hard.

---------- Post added at 07:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:10 AM ----------

Its listed in SAIS 5 under 'Remarks' to the side of the MK2 BUTT PLATE

Oops! There's a reason I'm not known as 'Mark the Observant'.

I have a notation penciled by the side that it was introduced in LoC's 14th August 1943

Thanks. Definitely a WWII item then. Any ideas why it was introduced? Was it simpler to make? Did it allow a MkII gun to be put in a MkI transit chest? etc.

Cheers,
Mark

[Kev G]

BUTT PLATE MK4 BE 7982 - MGD 2578, Its listed in SAIS 5 under 'Remarks' to the side of the MK2 BUTT PLATE listing but only gives the BE number.
I have a notation penciled by the side that it was introduced in LoC's 14th August 1943 but you might want to check for an earlier date of actuall first use.

ATB Kevin

[Peter Laidler]

The modification to the butt was to round-out with a rasp the undercut that the top strap sat into so that the top strap of the butt plate sat ABOVE the butt instead of being recessed into it. Now, if the butt was dropped onto the ground - as they inevitably are - there is no wooden undercut to get chiselled out. So simple that I wonder why noone thought of doing it like that originally.

I might be wrong here but the Mk2/1 guns were all fitted with the modified butt plates and butts during the early 50's FTR/conversion programme. It was 18,000 guns plus another 20,000 later if I remember correctly

[peregrinvs]

The modification to the butt was to round-out with a rasp the undercut that the top strap sat into so that the top strap of the butt plate sat ABOVE the butt instead of being recessed into it. Now, if the butt was dropped onto the ground - as they inevitably are - there is no wooden undercut to get chiselled out.

Thanks. Does that mean the plate will still fit if you don't round off the undercut? I saw a Monotype MkII Bren for sale at the Stoneleigh militaria fair a couple of weeks ago that had a Mk4 butt plate and I don't specifically remember seeing the top strap on top of the butt.

Cheers,
Mark

[Peter Laidler]

Yep, it'll still fit but if you drop it on the butt plate, the top strap part will just hook the wood out and you've got yourself a split butt that you'll have to repair. You might get away with just making good with a rasp - as you should have done in the first place. Or the crack could go downwards and you'll have to glue, plug and peg........... Been there, done that, plugged and pegged hundreds.............

As a matter of interest, does/do any of you old fashioned carpenters out there still use that boil-in-the-bag type old animal bone glue?

[peregrinvs]

Yep, it'll still fit but if you drop it on the butt plate, the top strap part will just hook the wood out and you've got yourself a split butt that you'll have to repair.

Oh well, I'll risk it. My Brens are all deactivated display pieces and I've yet to drop one as they seldom get moved.

Although that comment has probably now invoked the Law of Sod.

Cheers,
Mark

[tankhunter]

And the very WORST thing you can do to any Weapon wood furniture, is to VARNISH it! Varnish LOOKS very nice & asthetically pleasing. BUT! It seals the Woods surface & then the wood will dry out from within. It then gets very brittle & hard! Drop the gun on it's butt & THEN see what happens!! (DONT!!) it will split a LONG way up if your lucky. If your unlucky (Law of Sod comes into play again!) It will spilt right up & possibly break into Two pieces! Furniture loves BOILED linseed oil (NOT RAW!) Rub the boiled Linseed into the surface of dry wood & watch it soak it up like blotting paper! If you have a dried out butt, after rubbing in the linseed. Stand the butt upright in a tin lid of the stuff. This will draw the oil up the grain of the wood a nurrish it & make it supple & help it 'Breath'. There is nothing like the feel of a nice set of wood in your hands that has been properly 'struck off', rubbed silky smooth with wire wool, & then Linseeded! For example an SLR of a No.4 Rifle. When you handle & 'Fondle' the wood. (AS you WILL find yourself doing!) You simply will not want to put it down! (Better stop now, as it MAY be construed as being a bit Pervey!!).........

[peregrinvs]

Furniture loves BOILED linseed oil

The Monotype MkII I bought in the summer (see pre-cleaning pictures in another thread) had very dry woodwork. It's Walnut and the butt is marked with the S111 (F. Tibbenham) code.

I gave it an initial wash over with white spirit to remove any dirt and grease. Then I rubbed it smooth with medium wire-wool, followed another rub with fine wire-wool to get it really smooth. Then I gave it a good soak with a 50/50 mix of raw linseed oil and white spirit and it soaked up a significant quantity. When this had dried, I started applying thin coats of boiled linseed oil and allowing them to soak in. The wood is still matt and I'm working on the assumption that the BLO will dry with a glossy finish when the wood is finally saturated. I'm waiting for the warm weather to start applying further coats to the Bren along with other guns I have that are 'pending'.

Mark