I know this has probably been asked a million times about 03A3's but.....

[ABPOS]

when and where were they used? I have done a little research when I first got mine and I still don't really know. I've seen like 1 picture of a guy in Europe with one and I think I saw one guy in Europe walking with one on the series, WWII in HD.

I have a remington and it's probably the only gun that is mostly indicative of WWII. Unmolested. My Carbine is a rebuild and I think my Garand is post WWII. I got the Garand and 03A3 from the CMP. But I really like shooting the 03A3. It's the only rifle I've shot at 600 yards. And I got on paper with it. I did put mine in a scant stock though. But I have the original too. Maybe when I get a chance I'll post pics.

I'm really wanting to own a weapon that is "What my Grandfather would've carried", that is WWII style. I might try and convert my carbine back to original, but I'm not sure. I'm still researching a little what I want to do. But I'd like whatever it is to be in actual WWII condition. Why? I don't know. Something to do I guess and I feel like I want to shake hands with my Grandpa who died in France when shooting. Probably silly, but that's what I want to do.

So.... were the O3A3's used for training or not? Or what. I've never really known. Is there a book on them? Is it possible my Grandfather shot one? He was a Sergeant in the 2nd infantry Division, 23rd I.R. I forget which company, I'll dig that out. He died in France on July 27th, 1944.


Thank you for listening.

Information

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[Rick the Librarian]

M1903A3s saw service in training; also, as grenade-launching platforms. They were often used by "support units - artillery, MPs, engineers, etc.

[Thumper]

My uncle served on the USS Wasp and went ashore to volunteer with the Marines. He told me he fought with an 03 until he found he couldn't reload it fast enough when they would Banzi charge. He took possession of a M1 Garand and things got a lot better for him.
He said the 03 was a fine shooting rifle, very accurate, but was limited with the 5 shot mag well.

[firstflabn]

As a Regular Army division in existence when the US entered WWII, the 2nd would have had M1903s (not 03A3). No way from here to tell whether they kept those until transitioning to Garands, carbines, and SMGs. By the time of your grandfather's death this transition would have been essentially complete in the ETO (for combat and combat support units including field artillery and engineer combat battalions, but not for many of the service units) though some '03's were still around for grenade launching. Poke around on the internet and find a source for a book on the division's WWII service which hopefully will contain a mention of small arms.

Immediate family can request the IDPF (Individual Deceased Personnel File) from the army.

The National WWII Museum | New Orleans: Honor: Research A Veteran

Not likely any mention of your grandfather's weapon, but it could give details about his death that may interest you. With over 500 sergeants in a 1944 infantry regiment, you need to learn what his assignment and rank were to begin to put together the answer to the weapon question. The answer may ultimately be indeterminate, but my guess would be that the 03A3 is the least likely choice considering the date of your grandfather's death and his rank.

[Rick the Librarian]

Firstlabn, I disagree that the 2nd would have had M1903s - most of the regular army divisions had been re-equipped with M1s by December 1941. Even some of the National Guard divisions had received them. Obviously, they still had some M1903s for grenade-launching and other purposes, but the infantry units would have had M1s.

[Chuckindenver]

most A3,s were issued to black troops, most of the {action} pics iv seen with A3,s during Late WW2, were with black troops and A3,s as well.

[firstflabn]

Good point, Rick, but we're both really just guessing without more info. If his grandfather wasn't inducted until, say, 1943, it's all moot anyway. I had in mind a single digit infantry division, but couldn't locate the file. Turns out I was thinking of the 4th DIV which was also an RA unit and also embarked rather late. This report is from December '42. Since the 4th DIV still had '03s a year after US entry, it's not implausible that a similar early mobilization/late departure unit was in the same boat. All I need to do is win the lottery and I could add this question to my National Archives wish list.

View image: springfield barrels 4th infdiv 12 28 42 001

The OP may have to be content in the knowledge that his grandfather would have received familiarization training with all small arms, so he at least handled everything. Depending on when the promotion to sergeant happened, the 03A3 would still seem to be the least likely candidate. But that too is based on playing the odds in the absence of facts about the division.

[JGaynor]

The link listed below is from a quick Google '23rd Infantry Regiment History' towards the end their is a list of many of the officers and non-coms. There is a lot more info out their if you look at the division and regimental histories. Good luck!
Regards,
Jim


http://www.lonesentry.com/unithistor...try/index.html

[ABPOS]

These are great responses. Today I will go downstairs and pull all the details I have. I do know that I DON'T have the IDPF. That is something I'd love to have. I had tried to do research about 5-6 years ago and hit a dead end. Something about a big fire in St.Louis and if you pay money you can "possibly" get some kind of recreation of the files. I didn't know what that meant and I didn't have a lot of extra money laying around to stick into some vague info. I'll look into that link though, firstflabn, thank you tons!!!

What I do know is that his rank was Sgt., at least that's what's on his Purple Heart paper and the Death Notice signed by Roosevelt. Well, sort of signed. Pre printed. He was 2nd ID, 23rd IR, and I think I know the company, but I have to look through my stuff downstairs. I don't know if knowing the company would help. I think it was "F" company, but I'll double check. But no, I don't know what his "job" or M.O.S. was, which makes it tough.

I have been on the "Lone Sentry" sight many times. I also have a Division book. He is listed as KIA. But there is not much other details about arms and such. It's more of a history of where they were. There are some specific stories or AAR's of particularly heroic acts. I remember one or two in particular of guys getting so peaved at being pinned down in the hedgrow's or by German Machine gunners that despite having depleted their rifle ammo, they would crawl up with a pistol and kill the German machine gunners. Usually to their own demise. Give me the shakes just thinking about it. Anyways.....

Yeah, it's probably a pipe dream do know what he had. And more than likely it was either a Carbine or Garand. It seems like those two were the most ubiquitous for that time, place and unit. 2nd ID landed in Normandy D-Day plus one and did a bunch of Hedgerow fighting. Then of course they were there for the breakout. I forget what they did during the bulge. But I'm pretty sure they were there too. Then after the war they were stationed in Korea, where I think they stayed until present day. 2nd ID is the Indian Head in a white star on a black Sheild. I'm sure you've seen the patches.

It just would be really nice to know what he did carry. Especially if it was something different. So what I'm hearing is that the 2nd ID, because it was a unit before the war, which I know it was, would have most likely had regular 03's and the O3A3's would've been saved for either newer units. Yeah, the one pic I was talking about of a Soldier in Europe I've seen was a black guy. I didn't really want to mention it because I didn't think it needed to be pointed out. I didn't want to seem racist. But I suppose at the time they were probably segregated and might have had different arms somewhat. I don't really know the history about that though. I think they might have been used more for supply driving???? I thought I remember reading or hearing that somewhere.

Thanks for the responses. Any more info is welcomed.

[firstflabn]

Random photos are the most anecdotal of evidence. Anecdotes can serve an important role as a starting point, but are utterly unreliable as an end point. Data first; conclusion next. Blacks tended to be concentrated in service units, which, not so coincidentally, was where where many of the '03s were distributed. It makes perfect sense to assign '03s to WWII rear echelon troops. A few of the late QM unit T/O&Es I have seen show Garands instead of '03s, so it seems to have been a matter of priorities with service units coming last. The QM unit T/O&Es I have seen have many more carbines than '03s, so there's really not much interesting going on there except to point out the obvious that guarding supplies was an important duty for service troops and the '03 could mount a bayonet.

There were hundreds of different T/O&Es in the WWII US Army, and I have seen maybe four or five dozen. Those for service troops are very scarce. You might want to hunt up the Military Research Service on the 'net. The guy sells T/O&E transcriptions (I would guess mostly to wargame designers), almost all of them being combat units, and includes many freebies (including all echelons of the 1944 infantry division) on his site. Might give you an idea of the scale of your question.

Thanks for sharing your grandfather's story. The war can't be studied without looking at the big picture; its grand scale is one of the attractions. But the human cost was felt one family at a time and it's important to be reminded of that from time to time.

I understand the IDPF request can take many months, but may be free to next of kin. The amount of info varies widely, but can in some cases be extremely detailed up to including eyewitness testimony. Apparently those records were not lost in the fire.