Odd BSA No4 serial number I was just wondering about

[Morning Wood]

Just picked up a BSA (M47C) stamped on butt socket with a non-conforming "to norm" serial #. There is no serial on the butt socket. Just M47C and 1944. This is a Faz FTR/51 conversion, so It's a Mk 1/2.

The serials on receiver, mag, and bolt are all Y:11XXX. Yes, there is a colon after the Y prefix, but it really looks like part of the Y instead of some sort of divider. Just not used to see BSA starting with the number 1. Any clues appreciated!

Also, does anyone know if BSA and/or Maltby ever did conversions to 1/2 or 1/3, or if only FAZ did those.

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[Maxwell Smart]

I don't know for certain if BSA did conversions, but I do have a Mk 1/2 with 1954 FTR date, with a BSA '53 barrel. The conversion markings are radically different to the usual Fazakerley ones, and it has a simple "A" XXXXX serial number, so I believe that it was done elsewhere, quite possibly by BSA.

[SpikeDD]

BSA had an extensive FTR program post war for contracts outside of the British military. I have 17 or 18 examples of these conversions. The markings appear to be consistent throughout 1954 with all previous markings being scrubbed and a new "A" prefix number allotted. Markings change a bit through 55' and 56' and some rifles have been observed using the rifles original serial numbers, similar to what Fazakerley does. Maltby did do FTR's but I do not believe they did any conversions to Mk.1/2.

Edit to Mk. 1/2 from Mk.2

[Peter Laidler]

BSA Mk1/2 conversions.......... I stand to be corrected here and readily accept it BUT. I would imagine that the patent/IPR rights to the modification were held by the UK Govt/MoS and wouldn't have allowed them to be used by a private contractor.

BSA certainly had a huge commercial FTR programme running for all manner of weaponry including Brens - that it 'outsourced' to Westley Richards. I don't know if 'outsourced' is the right word but they clearly worked together in this Bren area.

[Morning Wood]

I just answered my own question. I just went looking through my own stable of No4's and found a BSA 1954 FTR that was converted to Mk1/2, so yes Morning Wood, At least BSA did conversions to MkII on No4's.

How I forgot I had that one, I don't know. Maybe I have too many No4's?

[Peter Laidler]

This has cropped up before....... Are you sure that it is not a Fazakerley converted Mk1/2 and passed through BSA later for a second FTR. Look hard because the Faz conversion marks were VERY light and were easily bead blasted out.

Incidentally, the Mk2's were not conversions as such. Mk2's were new builds.

[SpikeDD]

Peter... I have many No.4's converted to Mk.1/2 and 1/3 by BSA, along with a couple of No.1 Mk.III's. There are no signs of any previous FTR from Faz or otherwise. I have observed new barrels marked M47/C with dates ranging from 1953 to 1956. M47/C marked cocking pieces, Stock sets and bolts. "B" marked Mk.1 rear milled sights. I have also observed some of them with converted Mk.I forestocks. If they were doing just FTR work from already converted receivers, which I would imagine quite possible, they were fitting them with all new BSA made stuff.

[Peter Laidler]

Yep, I take the point Spike and my doubts stem from the fact that in the UK Military we never (?) saw BSA FTR rifles so doubted their existence. Clearly the UK Govt were doing their best to keep their own Govt factories occupied!!!!!

There really was nothing inherently difficult about the Mk1 to 1/2 conversion and everything was convertable quite easily - except the fabricated trigger guards!

Thanks for the clarification Dave

[SpikeDD]

LoL... I'm not sure how clarified it all is. I can only express what I have personally observed over the last 10 or so years. Your points on the patent/IPR rights and Fazakerley needing to keep their own workers busy yet again raises more questions. If the patents restricted BSA from doing the conversion work, did the government contract BSA to do conversions to save money? That outsourcing of work would have certainly put a strain on keeping the Fazakerley workers busy.

[Peter Laidler]

Clearly the patent rights weren't enforced and BSA did the same to their FTR rifles. The patent argument was only raised because I hadn't seen a BSA Mk1/2 and Enfield certainly enforced the patent rights when it came to allowing other nations to convert Mk2 and 3 Brens to L4 spec! You bought them or had them converted at Enfield or went without! But that is another story..........

THere was a distinct strategic policy to keep the ROF Fazakerley running regardless of its troubled industrial strife.