Troublesome Long Branch

[nijalninja]

I've posted this rifle here before when I firstly bought, but after shooting it once a while ago I put it away; it shot so much worse than any rifle I have ever used that I could not believe it.

Well today I got it out again and decided to see how it shot, and it has me confused. Keep in mind this is all only 50 yards since I got 1 out of 5 on target at 100 yards last time.

First 5 rounds: That one off to the left is the first shot, and yes it looks exactly like a sideways 174gr HPBT projectile. The next 4 all seem to be in that tight little group towards the middle of the target.
Attachment 91385

Next 3: Way high but but in a much nicer shape.
Attachment 91386

Next 3: My father shot these and he is not used to the battle sights.
Attachment 91388

Last 3: I used the flip up peep for this and it seems to have hit the closest to where I was aiming, but after the second shot I realised the box/target was bouncing around with every shot, so you might as well not count this one.
Attachment 91387

Also the barrel on this rifle is very dark and lightly pitted for the whole length. I spent some 4 hours cleaning it after I first bought it and it didn't seem to do much. After every group shot here there was little bits of residue at the bottom of the bore. My father's theory as to why it shot so bad first and is now getting better is because the crap in the barrel was very very very very firmly bedded into the rifling and is only now freeing up. I know the crown is pretty tight, and so is the throat.
Attachment 91389

Finally, what does this little L11 mean?
Attachment 91390

Its got me thoroughly scratching my head. Its nice to look at, and it stocks up excellently, but what the hell is it doing?

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[CINDERS]

Without a bore scope you cannot really say whats going on in the lede area so I have put up 4 pics of what it looks like inside, the first is my 1916 Lithgow Pics # 1 & 2 showing the end of the chamber neck with carbon build up & fire cracking then a pic of the bore with pitting and carbonation showing how much is going on in there.
You will note the difference in the 1921 barrel Pics # 3 & 4 chamber neck area not too bad the bore fairly good but not pristine but it indicates minimal use, these barrels had Montana Copper Killer min them with Bore Tech Carbon remover used first the barrels swabbed with Metho then the Copper killer soaking for @ 30 - 40 minutes used up 2 x 7.7mm copper bore brushes as the copper killer likes them as well.

Like all these Milsurps age, past what they have been through we have only the dates they were made and maybe some unit marking to go by everything else is just pure guess work.

I would go with the bedding, draws, is it touching anywhere it shouldn't I found the collar on my sniper T was too long causing the whole action to rock back & forth on it plus the draws were knackered beyond belief @20 MOA at 100yds on a 300M full bore target!
Front sight blade tight, vertical can be A) Sighting issues by the shooter B) Barrel heating up and touching underneath at the fore end C) Damaged/Uneven crown, as for the Keyhole unless you hit the dirt which you would see I have no real explanation, just my take on it I stand to be corrected as I am here to learn also.

[tbonesmith]

If it's keyholing rounds I'd be replacing the barrel, and bedding it while I was at it. If it's throwing the odd one sideways, the stability of the rest has got to be pretty marginal

[nijalninja]

Hey Cinders I must say that image #2 actually looks pretty close to what I see up the bore. With this barrel I have hit it with Hoppe's foaming bore cleaner, Hoppes No9, Sweets, and plenty of elbow grease with a Parker Hale Brush and maybe a kg of cloths but its still dark in there. Yeah all of these rifles really could be anything under the surface. I paid too much for it without paying enough attention to its details but ah well. I have glanced at the bedding, and it stocks up to the draws and wrist pretty tight in the fore-end. I haven't checked the collar but I didn't notice anything out of the oridinary the few times I have taken it apart and reassembled, but I know the stock does not rock as you describe. I packed the bands on the handguards a little bit since they were a tad slack and I was suspicious the front one may have been slipping forward to touch the rear sights. However, I haven't thought about the barrel heating and whatnot. Is there any reasonable way to check this? Crown looks alright from what I can see, but that isn't saying much.

Tbone, the barrel is worn, but far from the worst I have seen. It also matches so there is a large part of me that wants to leave it. Yeah the one sideways was very strange, perhaps it just doesn't like cold-bore shots.

Thanks both of you, I now have a bit more to look at with the rifle and in the meantime I will keep shooting groups to see how it performs and if it gets better or worse or even more confusing that it already is.

[Ridolpho]

nijalninja: Is the ammo you were using commercial or handloads? You mention boat-tail bullets which are known to not necessarily work in rifles with eroded throats. You might try some other type with flat base bullets. I would suggest using a lead-sled type of rest or front and rear sandbags to try to ascertain exactly what it is doing while taking yourself out of the equation (as much as possible). I'm not sure what you're hoping to see with a bore of the condition you describe but be aware that service standards for precision may not be what you expect. For example, a later Canadian EME Manual indicates that the "T" sniper rifle needs to group 5 inside a 3" by 3" square at 100 yds with front rest. These aren't target rifles! I had a somewhat similar experience to yours with a badly worn early 1942 Savage. As purchased it simply wouldn't group (or call it 10") at 100 yds. I noticed the "draws" were only bearing firmly on one side so I took the plunge and patched it. After that, and with commercial flat-based bulleted ammo, it would just make that 3" by 3" requirement so I called it a success and moved on. Very rough and uniformly pitted bore- tears up patches badly. Yours already seems to be showing (realistically) some fair potential, given the bore, so keep trying but don't expect miracles. Good luck with it.

Ridolpho

[nijalninja]

Hey Ridolpho, I am using Handloads which were developed for a MkIII Ross. I supposed they would be half decent in a No4. I am aware of the boat-tail worn bore problem, but I only have two handloads for .303 brit, and the first handloads I tried were 150gr downloads and they were much much worse. I just wanted to see if maybe a heavier projectile would make much difference. I am planning to look at projectiles with more for the rifling to bite into in the future. Well the thing is that the bore is dark and pitted, but the rifling is pretty proud so I had mixed hopes. Next time I strip it down I plan to check all of this including the draws. Hahaha I don't expect a miracle but when I bought I didn't expect nor want the atrocity it produced downrange. Thanks.

[CINDERS]

You cannot surmise that a load in a totally different action will work in the Lee Enfield the only way to do it is to load up a swag of different weighted charges of the chosen powder get to the range and go from there looking for nodes and pressure 3 shot groups are good enough to find nodes 5 shotters your just burning money.
Without getting too technical I played around & around with reloading the 303 with mixed results over the years so after much mucking around and a couple of dismal failures especially with Win-748 I pulled all the rounds I had loaded think about 300 and went with one that seems to work in all my 303's.

WARNING NO LIABILITY ACCEPTED WITH USING THIS LOAD DATA REDUCE LOADS BY 5% AND INCREASE SLOWLY CHECKING FOR SIGNS OF PRESSURE OR HARD EXTRACTION.
What works in my rifles may not in yours so take your time as the results I attained were very good across my No.4's MKIII and my T having won events using this load with the SMK have not done much with the Bullet Factory one yet..

46 grains of AR 2209 (H414, 4350, IMR 4350 to you in the US) Fed 210 Gold Match or CCI BR2 with RP case (Which we can no longer get here in the west!) I then made it to a P.O.F MKVII COAL with an SMK 174gn bearing in mind the ogives are different as I did not want to have a bullet point hitting the mags front or have feeding issues.
I have the Bullet Factory 174gn FBHP to play with initial results are promising I helped another member here with load data and they are pretty stoked how it worked out using these projectiles I am pretty happy with the overall product from this place about time Aussies got it happening.

Get out and about and buy Nick Harvey's latest book on reloading about 50 bucks

[Bindi2]

I have never seen a Long Branch serial number stamped like that before. RED FLAGS UP.

[Forest63]

Curious, how many grooves does your barrel have? Have you tried any 180 gr bullets without the boat tail? Forest

[nijalninja]

Cinders, yeah they are just what I had laying around and I knew they were all loaded by me so I trusted them. Cheers also for the load, I might use it as a guideline, but seeing that I have never had an Enfield to build a load for I might just use this rifle as a platform for testing for if I get a nicer one someday. That being said I'll be careful. Never heard of Nick Harvey but a reloading book could be handy (The old Lyman book I have is a little outdated seeing as it is from the 80's).

Bindi, after seeing other rifles posted here and ones in Skennerton's book I too am unsure. Never saw a Long Branch before this rifle. You wouldn't happen to know what the L11 means would you?

Forest, I have not counted the grooves but I will assume it is 5 from memory, and no I have not tried 180gr projectiles, but I'll go out and try a mix of new projectiles (Namely ones with more jacket for the lead to bite.)

Thanks so far everyone.