Argentino M1879 Rolling Block. Is it worth restoring?

[killforfood]

Up to No. 4 now!

That right there's pretty funny

Well the progress on my M1879 Argentine Remington Rolling Block (Google plug) has slowed somemwhat.
Everything that I need to start reloading the .43 Spanish (Google plug) is on order except the Jamison .43 Spanish Brass (Google plug).
I ran out of cash and had to decide between, Shooting The .43 Spanish Rolling Block by Croft Barker (Google plug) or buying the Jamison .43 Spanish Brass (Google plug)
I decided knowledge before action was the wiser choice.
I will place the order for the Jamison .43 Spanish Brass (shameless Google plug) on the 15th.

I’m getting a better feel for the “boning up” process. I haven’t applied any more boiled linseed oil to the stock for four or five days now. I’m still seeing oil come up in a couple small places as I burnish across those areas. I will try again today and if it’s dry, my next application will need to be lighter. I’m wetting my rag with about half and half Turpentine to oil ratio. I’m confident that the last application soaked in very deep (maybe to deep) and that’s why it’s so slow to dry.
The first application was very rewarding but I can tell now that this is a process of diminishing returns. Perseverance will win the day though.

Acquiring the 2Fg Goex Black Powder turned into a rather interesting adventure.
The shop, er, uhm… The barn is located up in Corbett Oregon, out past the cabbage patches and Horse pastures on a dead end gravel road. Perfect! My kind of place. At first glance there is just an old weathered barn perched on the side of a steep hill. The door was open and I wandered in to find the usual old tractors and well used implements scattered about. If not for the signs welcoming me into a side door, I would have carefully backed out thinking I was trespassing. Bob greeted me at the door with a hearty “come on in”. It’s a very small shop but crammed full of every thing you could ever want for muzzle loading. I only had enough cash to buy the Black Powder and was bummed when I spied a cleaning jag that would fit my new 3/8” brass rod. Bob just handed me the jag and his business card and said “mail me the cash”! You will never see that kind of trust in a big city store. He also dug around in his possible bag and gave me a couple round balls to slug my bore with. Nice guy, I highly recommend him.
Muzzleloading and More

If you would like some advice on how to fix the hinge on your "hair-loom" shotgun, please post a couple of pictures showing details of the hinge components. Above all, a close up of the existing pin. Then I can give you some "spoon-feeding" about adjusting (more likely: replacing) it.

I think the hinge pin is ok but the locking lug is well worn and prevents the action from closing tightly. I think it will require welding and re-fitting. The M1879 Argentine Rolling Block (Google plug) is my first priority and I will only fiddle with the shotgun as time allows.

Joel

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Patrick Chadwick]

I’m wetting my rag with about half and half Turpentine to oil ratio.

I think I wrote: a rag moistened with turpentine - not wet. Look at my earlier postings.
So taper off the turpentine! It only has to be a trace, to stop the drop of BLO forming a sticky blob in one spot.
You are right about diminishing returns - go to once a week until the new year, then once a month for ever (I kid you not!). No - I am kidding - the next year will do - you are making up for a century of non-maintenance.

I think the hinge pin is ok but the locking lug is well worn and prevents the action from closing tightly. I think it will require welding and re-fitting.

If so, you're right!

[killforfood]

Patrick,

All of my mail order goodies have arrived!
1. Jamison .43 Spanish brass 20pc
2. 3/8” brass rod
3. Bullets, 439" diameter, 370 grain, round nose from Lyman 439-186 mold, SPG lube, 50pc
4. 2Fg Goex black powder
5. LEE .43 Spanish reloading dies
6. Croft Barker book, Shooting the .43 Spanish Rolling Block
7. Leather oil dye for stock touchup
8. Thompsons Bore Butter and SPG Bullet Lube

I also have plenty of .357 brass and a small feed store syringe from the last time we wormed the dogs. I’ll have to check on the 30 carbine brass. I likely have some but just don’t recall for sure.

I’m getting very excited to shoot the old Rolling Block for the first time!!!
My usual shooting place up in the woods is probably well buried in snow by now so I may have to come up with a plan B. I don’t normally shoot at ranges but I know enough folks that do that I should be able to work something out as a guest.
If time allows I’ll slug the bore and try to get some updated pictures posted in the next couple days. My work schedule has been brutal lately so no promises.

Joel.

[gunner]

Sorry for hitchhiking the thread, but i see that you became a "Advisory Panel Member" Patrick. That hits the right one, Congrats!

All the best

Gunner

[Patrick Chadwick]

Good news Joel!

If you have not already done so, you now need to acquire a length of 1/4"x24tpi (or 6mm x 1) threaded rod with 2 nuts that is long enough to reach from the muzzle right down to the block face when the action is closed, and still leave a bit sticking out of the muzzle for the two nuts. This is going to be used as a simple, but very effective "depth gauge" for checking head clearance (NOT headspace!) and establishing the seating depth and appropriate load for your cartridges. Let me know when you are ready, and I will then prepare and send the next instalment of this saga.

As soon as you have time to post some pics of the muzzle end of the bore, we can consider whether a recrowning is a) unnecessary b) advisable or c) unavoidable. But regardless of the conclusions, you will be able to try out the rifle as it is. The first time with new cartridges for BPCRs is anyway more for fire-forming than for accuracy!

Patrick

[Claven2]

I know you want to KISS, but you might also order some kapok for wadding and a card cutter in .43" from track of the wol or buffalo arms. I'm a huge believer in topping my BP loads with tamped kapok (e-bay has it, it's a natural fibre ideal for BP filler/wad), card, grease cookie and card topped by the bullet. Empty space in your case is not a good idea so unless you want to shoot stiff loads, you'll need this stuff to take up any empty space in the case.

[killforfood]

If you have not already done so, you now need to acquire a length of 1/4"x24tpi (or 6mm x 1) threaded rod.

Coincidentally, I do have 6’ sticks of All Thread. My summer hobby is building Sprint Kart engines and ARP (stud kit manufacturer) doesn’t have a kit that meets my needs so I cut my own studs from high tensile All Thread.

Let me know when you are ready, and I will then prepare and send the next installment of this saga.

Ready and waiting (patiently, of course).
Patrick, you always leave me hanging with partial juicy tidbits, always enough information to pique my interest but never enough to fully grasp the concept.

Oh well, "Tune in tomorrow — same Bat-time, same Bat-channel!"

As soon as you have time to post some pics of the muzzle end of the bore

My good friend Jake is home from college for Christmas break. His camera and picture taking skills far exceed my own. He’s staying with us but I’ve only seen him once due to my heavy work load. I have a Dentist appointment this afternoon so work will have to let me go at a decent hour today. Tonight I’ll re-assemble the rifle for a picture taking session.

I know you want to KISS, but you might also order some kapok for wadding and a card cutter in .43" from track of the wolf or buffalo arms.

I do want to learn the more advanced loading techniques but again, my budget is shot for this month. After the first of the year I will be able to add a wad cutter and other goodies to the shopping list.
I do appreciate the advice as to what should be on that list.

I'm a huge believer in topping my BP loads with tamped kapok (e-bay has it, it's a natural fibre ideal for BP filler/wad), card, grease cookie and card topped by the bullet.

Sure, I remember Kapok. It used to be the standard filler for those big old puffy life jackets we had to wear before closed cell foam came along. I don’t yet fully understand the grease cookie concept but no doubt I will learn soon.

Empty space in your case is not a good idea so unless you want to shoot stiff loads, you'll need this stuff to take up any empty space in the case.

I’m not talking from experience but won’t these heavy walled Jamison cases need a full load to fully fire form on the first shot? I don’t mind a stiff load. I bought one of those old Steyr Mannlicher M95 rifles that Big 5 was selling. It took me awhile to find some old Nazi crap to shoot in it but boy did those old loads put some wood to my shoulder, and a smile on my face.

[Claven2]

I’m not talking from experience but won’t these heavy walled Jamison cases need a full load to fully fire form on the first shot? I don’t mind a stiff load. I bought one of those old Steyr Mannlicher M95 rifles that Big 5 was selling. It took me awhile to find some old Nazi crap to shoot in it but boy did those old loads put some wood to my shoulder, and a smile on my face.

Essentially you do not want empty space in a BP cartridge or you could risk rupturing the case and/or ringing the chamber, if not blowing up the gun. With some calibers, it's not an issue if you just fill the case minus the volume of the bullet, but you would still use a card and preferably a small grease cookie to keep the fouling soft. Patrick will likely cover that later.

I'm not sure if .43 Mauser is one of those rounds that requires filler or not. I shoot a lot of .577-450 and you DEFINITELY need a filler. Filling a modern extruded case would likely grenade a martini action.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Patrick will likely cover that later.

Yup, it's coming. But I want to see some pics from Joel first!

I'm not sure if .43 Mauser is one of those rounds that requires filler or not.

All my BPCR cases are full. Either grease cookie or grease + filler.

I shoot a lot of .577-450 and you DEFINITELY need a filler.

100% agreement there!

[killforfood]

Hi all,
Patrick was kind enough to shake me from the doldrums with a PM yesterday.
It’s been quite awhile since we’ve made any progress on the ole Rolling Block but since work has somewhat released its death grip on me, maybe we can answer the final question; Will this rifle shoot? More to the point, will it shoot accurately?

First I need to bring our progress up to date update.
I’ve continued to apply the occasional coat of BLO to the stock and not only does it look pretty good but I am also curiously beginning to like the smell. I also applied some stain to the repaired area under the forearm and it no longer stands out so badly.

All of my latest attempts to take indoor pictures with artificial lighting have been less than presentable. I’ve wanted to use outdoor lighting but the weather has been bad and lately I’m rarely home during daylight hours. I did manage one short opportunity between sprinkles and I’ll post a couple of those shots tonight. Nothing fancy though. I literally ran outside between showers and leaned it up against a tree trunk and snapped some shots. I also tossed it on the burn pile and snapped a couple more. Even with overcast and sprinkles, natural light far exceeds anything I can do inside.

Patrick wrote a nice tutorial on how to determine proper “cartridge overall length”. His method was quick simple and surprisingly accurate. I do have some concerns though with the variability of how deep my selection of bullets seated in the lands. I used the first five bullets from the end of the box and found up to .050” difference in how deeply they would seat into the lands with light pressure using a ballpoint pen as the pusher. My results varied from 3.010” to 3.060”. This was repeatable. Erring on the safe side requires that I use the smaller value and to reduce it by an additional .040” (per Patrick’s tutorial).
The final C.O.L. will then be 2.970”, which is still .125” longer than the C.O.L. listed as maximum on the Lee reloading die instructions (2.845”). I believe with more consistent bullets the C.O.L. could safely be increased to 3.000”. To obtain this level of bullet quality, I may need to mold my own.

One last item that I would like to complete is slugging the bore. I pushed a couple 45cal balls through but they did not fully deform enough to fill the grooves. I pushed through a couple 44cal pistol bullets and they did fully deform into the grooves. I’ve yet to accurately measure them. Curiously the last 8” or 10” near the muzzle was the tightest section of the barrel. This may be nothing more than increased friction due to rust pitting or it may actually be smaller there, I’m not sure. My idea is to cast the muzzle end of the barrel just like I did the chamber with my sulfur graphite mix and compare the dimensions.

Regardless the results from slugging the bore or does the barrel need re-crowned; what I really need to do is load some cartridges and see how it shoots as is.

Patrick, I believe I have all of the hard goods you previously listed to load cartridges. I’ll review the list but I think I’m ready to go. In addition I ordered a neck only sizing die that also doubles as a compressed load die, if needed.

As always I patiently await your instructions.

Thanks, Joel.