Argentino M1879 Rolling Block. Is it worth restoring?

[Patrick Chadwick]

OK Joel, time to clear the bench!

Refurbishing an Argentine RB - Part 13 - Reloading


In Part 12 we worked out a plausible maximum overall cartridge length for the rifle.

As I do not have an Argentine Rolling Block, the pictures that follow are for reloading a Mauser M1871 cartridge. The methodology for the Argentine is identical, but “your mileage may differ”.

Joel, I hope you got the other curious items as well, because you are going to need them right now!

From your last pictures, I see that you got the wad-cutter and have already cut some wads. The other odd items were ...

"... an empty 30M1 Carbine case (357 or 38 special will work, but the carbine case is easier to use)".

".... and a couple of 5cc (5ml) one-way plastic syringes (without the needles of course) from the apothecary or (pack-ratting again) scrounged from your doctor or dentist."

But before making up live ammunition, there is one last check to be made!

You have already observed a slight variation in the depth that various bullets can be seated. This may, of course, just be variation in the bullets themselves. But it may also be inherent in the measurement method. When you push in a "free" bullet, it can wiggle around a bit to fit into the throat, and it is also difficult to be sure that the bullet is just touching, and not being ever-so-slightly engraved.

When, however, a bullet is seated in a case, it no longer has any freedom of movement to fit into the throat, being constrained by the case neck. So it is advisable to make up a dummy round with a bullet seated to the anticipated correct depth in an empty cartridge case.





Paint over the nose with a marker pen, as shown. Load the dummy round into the rifle and close the block. Remove and repeat a couple of times, rotating the case a little each time. If there is no sign of engraving on the marked area of the nose, then all is OK. If there is some engraving, you will probably notice that the case has to be shoved in hard before you can close the block. In which case, you will have to seat the bullet a bit deeper, so that the engraving disappears.

When that is OK, you are ready to load!

First of all, here is a view of the equipment being used for the “desktop” part of this activity (i.e. not including the reloading press and dies). I am using an un-lubricated bullet for this, for illustration purposes.



The powder is Swiss No. 4 (1.5fg). No. 3 (2fg) would also be OK, but No. 2 (3fg) is a bit too fast for the long barrel of a military Rolling Block. It may produce too much pressure too early, thus unnecessarily straining the action.



The grains look remarkably like model coal as used on HO model railroads. This is because they are indeed given a final coat of graphite during manufacture, to prevent electrostatic charge building up on the powder - a precaution that has been taken by powder manufacturers since way back in the 19th century.

How are we going to the get right quantity of powder into the case?

Well, you can buy a commercial powder dispenser, but they perform poorly with such large grains. You can, with a bit of practice, get loads with a spread of 0.4 grains by using the following simple devices from the “pack-rat” school of engineering.

This is a measure for 60.5 grains of Swiss No. 2.



And this is a measure for 67.4 grains of No. 2.



These powder measures are actually made from old cases, with a brass wire soldered on as a handle. The 60.5 measure is a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser case, and the 67.4 measure is an 8x57IS case. So a few minutes pack-ratting at the range will provide you with a wide spectrum of potential powder measures!

The powder weights were established as averages, after I had had some reloading practice. The weight values for other powders will, of course, be a little different, but that is unimportant. Standard practice for black powder is to load a constant volume of powder, not weight, so that the cases are filled to a constant level. A BPCR case should not have any air space when it is complete. OK, before someone points out that there is air between the grains, I should put that a bit more precisely and say that you should not hear the powder rustling around in the case if you shake the completed cartridge.

Of course, the powder will settle after some time, especially if the cases are vibrated (like in the back of the car when you drive to the range). There are various schools of thought on this matter. Some say use a drop tube. Some say compress the powder 1/8” in the case. Some say 1/16”. But we are at the KISS stage of reloading at the moment - you can try out the other methods later, when you know that the rifle is worth keeping as a shooter - I am pretty confident it will be!

To get a fairly constant weight in the case, the power must be poured in a consistent manner.

The powder shovel [I have no idea where it came from] is loaded as shown in the next picture.



The shovel is placed over the case mouth, the shovel it tilted until the powder start to flow, and the entire shovel-full is poured in, so that the powder overflows.



I had to hold the camera to take these pics - normally the measure is held upright, not free-standing!

The excess powder is stroked off the top of the case.



With practice (always a similar amount in the shovel, always holding the shovel at a similar angle) you will have loads that are quite consistent.

Now to get the powder into the case. This is where “Patrick’s Patent Powder Measures” really score.

Simply invert the case over the powder measure



Reverse the whole assembly, and the powder falls into the case without spilling a single grain. Tap the case on the bench a couple of times to make sure that nothing is left in the measure and that the powder is well-settled in the case. It is a good idea to do this in a tray, to keep every grain off the bench, as a couple of grains may have stuck to the outside of the measure, and these will be shaken off when you tap the case.

But is there enough powder in the case?

-----------------------------

The volume of pictures forces me to make a break here.

Tune in again for Part 14!


Patrick

[Patrick Chadwick]

And finally ...

Refurbishing an Argentine RB - Part 14


Is there enough powder in the case?

To check this, put the 30M1 (or .357 or .38 special) case into the BP case so that it sits on the powder. Use a marker pen to mark the height of the BP case mouth on the 30MI case.



Now place the marked 30M1 case next to an empty BP case, to see how deep the top of the powder charge is.



That is not enough. The powder must come up above the shoulder, otherwise the card wad will become loose when it is pushed down. A load like this would require the use of a suitable non-rigid filler (semolina, dacron - there are various possible materials).

So we do it again, this time with the 67.4gn measure. Once more, mark the level on the 30M1 case.



And once more, check this with the empty case.



This is sufficient. And is in fact precisely what I use for my (nearly) match-winning load. When you are tuning the load for optimum performance, you can get any load you need by using different measures, or by filing down the mouth of an existing measure. As an experienced pack-rat, you will have collected several cases!

Now it is necessary to ensure clean separation between the powder and any filler or, in this case, the grease cookie. Take a card wad - as you can see, it was punched out of an old (washed out!) milk carton.



Since the wad was punched from the other (white) side, it is slightly rounded on that side, and the side you can see here has the sharper edge. The wad will be easier to push into the case if you preserve this orientation.

Place the wad over the case mouth



(some more one-handed pictures coming now!).

Now place the mouth of the 30M1 case over the center of the wad,



... and press the wad gently into the case mouth. The wad may become slightly skewed. Just press a bit more on the side that is higher in the neck, and it will straighten out as it goes down. You might like to practice on an empty case a couple of times, before trying a case with powder in it. If you pull out the wad from the case, you will see that it is slightly dished. That is what keeps it tight!



Push the wad down until you feel it sit on the powder.
Repeat with a second wad.
The powder is now safely in the case.

The next stage is to insert the grease cookie. I call it cookie because many people like to do it this way: take a suitable tray-like object (a suitably deep lid off a glass jar could do) and fill it to the brim with the lube of your choice (I see you have some ready). Simply place the case mouth down on the lube tray, push down, twist and lift, and you have a defined amount of lube in the case mouth. You are using the case mouth like a cookie-cutter, hence the name grease cookie. At least that is the theory. It only works cleanly if the lube has a wax-like consistency. The lube I prefer is too soft for this method. And this is where the 5ml syringes come in...

These syringes are marked in 0.2ml steps.



As you can see, the original markings are gradually dissolved by the lubricant. I discovered by experiment that 0.4ml was not quite enough lube to get through a match target without fouling problems, and increased it to 0.5. The syringe has accordingly been remarked in 0.5ml steps.



And if you look at the next picture, you can see that this amount of lube fits neatly in between the bullet and the card wads over the powder.



Now squeeze a dose of lube into the neck of the cartridge, seat a properly lubricated bullet to the right depth, and you are done. I don't think it is necessary for me to tell you how to use a loading press, so I am pretty nearly done too!

One last point. Observant readers will note that I have made no mention of a card wad between the bullet and the grease cookie.
- Firstly, the bullets are anyway lubricated in their grease grooves. So the bullet is not grease free to start off with.
- Secondly, although some are worried about blobs of grease sticking to the base and throwing the bullet off course, I am not convinced that a wad sticking to the base is any better. It is going to peel off to one side or the other. Another small but unpredictable factor. And the soft lube I use has no chance of clinging to the base of a bullet doing about 350 meters/sec when it exits the muzzle. But I have seen wads more than 10 yards downrange.
- Thirdly, you can find on the Pedersoli website a recommendation that you shoot the Gibbs percussion target rifle without a wad between powder and bullet base. And the Gibbs is quite simply the best you can get. Again, some worry about grains of unburnt powder sticking to the base, but is a sticking wad any improvement?
- Fourthly, I have tried with and without such a wad, and not observed any difference.
- And finally, true to the good old engineering principle “if you don't build it in, it can't go wrong” - an old-fashioned way of saying KISS - why add something of doubtful utility that takes up more time and space?.

Mechanically, you basically have the length of the neck to play with when adjusting seating depth, powder volume and lube quantity. If you have followed this method carefully, you may not have the absolute best possible load for your rifle, but you will have a PDG first approximation.

You are now ready for the test firing!

Good luck, and please post pictures of the results!


Patrick


P.S: store the loaded cartridges with the bullet down, This helps to prevent lubricant seeping through the wad into the powder (I hope!)

[killforfood]

Tonight was a good night. I feel like we’ve completed a major chapter in this book.
I am now the proud owner of twenty freshly loaded rounds of .43 Spanish.
The re-loading proceeded without a hitch. I settled on a piece of 270 Winchester brass for a powder measure. It threw a 65.5 grain charge that put me at just the right height. I believe that after the cases are fire formed, I will need to increase this charge by a couple grains to make up for the case expansion. I believe Patrick predicted 67.4 grains which is nearly exactly what I believe the final load will be. Uncanny isn’t it?




I double checked the bullet to land clearance and stuck with a cautious 2.970” as my overall length. I cycled all of the loaded rounds through the rifle and they all fed and ejected easily. After some additional testing, I will likely extend the overall length to 3”. Here you can see how deeply the bullets are seated. I didn’t bother crimping as there is ample neck length gripping the bullet. Crimping is more suited To cartridges that have to suffer the pounding of recoil while stacked in a magazine. The flawed bulled in the middle will be used as a fouler.



Depending on work, I will try to shoot this weekend. My usual place is snowed in this time of year so I’m not sure where I’ll go.
Wish me luck, Joel.

[Patrick Chadwick]

I double checked the bullet to land clearance and stuck with a cautious 2.970” as my overall length. I cycled all of the loaded rounds through the rifle and they all fed and ejected easily. After some additional testing, I will likely extend the overall length to 3”. Here you can see how deeply the bullets are seated. I didn’t bother crimping as there is ample neck length gripping the bullet. Crimping is more suited To cartridges that have to suffer the pounding of recoil while stacked in a magazine. The flawed bulled in the middle will be used as a fouler.

Absolutely right-on Joel!
Forget crimping - just another variable to worry about. The sheer inertia of heavy lead bullets seated deeply in the case ensures neck expansion without crimping. In fact... no I'll tell you about that AFTER your test shoot. Those rounds look very, very good.

I cycled all of the loaded rounds through the rifle and they all fed and ejected easily.

A very wise precaution for the first load.

Good shooting! - and don't forget to post the results (AND pictures of the muzzle)

Patrick

[Patrick Chadwick]

Joel, forgive me if I appear overcautious, even a bit picky, but I would be grateful if you would acknowledge the following disclaimer before firing that rifle with live ammunition:

The advice given with regard to the refurbishment of the Argentine Rolling Block chambered in caliber .43 Spanish and the method of making ammunition for the same does not imply any responsibility for the safety of the aforementioned rifle and ammunition. Every shooter and reloader is himself or herself responsible for the safety of the guns that they use and the ammunition that they employ. In case of doubt, the only proper course is to consult a professional gunsmith.


Patrick

[gunner]

Good advices Patrick! Hahaha, i´ve seen you use the "Vollmilch" we are using the "Orange juice" good, easy, cheap!

[Patrick Chadwick]

I like milky coffee and my wife always presses fresh oranges!

Patrick

[killforfood]

Joel, forgive me if I appear overcautious, even a bit picky, but I would be grateful if you would acknowledge the following disclaimer before firing that rifle with live ammunition:

The advice given with regard to the refurbishment of the Argentine Rolling Block chambered in caliber .43 Spanish and the method of making ammunition for the same does not imply any responsibility for the safety of the aforementioned rifle and ammunition. Every shooter and reloader is himself or herself responsible for the safety of the guns that they use and the ammunition that they employ. In case of doubt, the only proper course is to consult a professional gunsmith.


Patrick

Patrick,

I fully understand… It’s sad though that we have to be so cautious in this overly litigious world we live in. I do fully accept all responsibility for my own re-loads, I don’t shoot other persons re-loads and I’ve turned down many requests from people asking me to re-load for them. The risks are just too great. About twenty years ago I acquired a badly damaged Armalite AR180 for $25. Apparently he was shooting reloads from a “friend” and one of them was double charged. The bolt and carrier were completely split in half and the fully loaded magazine blew out the bottom and peppered the owner’s feet with live rounds. Charlie was very lucky that he only suffered bruised feet and a burned hand. The lesson learned here is to choose only powders that with a single charge nearly fill the case to the brim. I repaired the rifle and still own it but I'll bet Charlie’s ears are still ringing

[Patrick Chadwick]

Joel, thank you for your understanding!

I don’t shoot other persons re-loads and I’ve turned down many requests from people asking me to re-load for them.

You are so right not to reload for others. If anything went wrong it could be very awkward.

Now let's see how the RB performs!

Patrick

[Claven2]

Nice looking loads (for the record, I DO prefer a wad under the bullet and a harder crisco/wax cookie - but I'm old school like that. Heck, I even paper patch my bullets for the Martini - lol)