new old stock 1903a3 rebarreling question

[Calif-Steve]

A Scrapco barrel? Oh, my. Mint, and unused, it was made by Remington with a short-chamber. The witness marks line up and you have to ream out your short chamber. Made that way. No thread work is done. Something is not right here. It should not eat a no-go gauge. Not mint, for sure. Let me add this:
Order a new, mint bolt body from Springfield Sporters. They have both S-C and Remington bolts. See if that cures your chamber issues. Good luck.

[milsurpmjt]

I guess I really don't know what "short Chambered" means. Is there a good explanation or link to one so I can understand what is going on? A new bolt body might be longer? Shouldn't I measure mine and see how it measures up to other people's? Is there a 1903a3 expert somewhere around Saint Louis, MO?

[milsurpmjt]

Could I have a bolt from a 1903 instead of a 1903a3? I purchased this rifle a year ago from CMP (mail order) and it has been the worst buy of my life. $500 for a rifle who's barrel was the worst I had ever seen, ripped my first couple patches to shreds and shot a 1 foot group @ 50 yards @ a benchrest. The follower would always eject the last round after I shot the 2nd to last round and talked to CMP who figured out they had mistakenly put a 1903 follower instead of a 1903a3 follower in the rifle. (at least that is fixed) The bottom of the stock has "amvets post 49" scratched into it so I guess the stock was from a drill rifle. (I can deal with that though) Argh, now I am up to $820 and I am still not done with it.

[45B20]

milsurpmjt

‘Short Chamber’ The barrel is not fully chambered during manufacture, so that when fitted to a receiver, index marks lined up, the bolt will not close on a GO gage, so that the chamber can be deepened, slightly, until the bolt closes on the GO gage but not on the NO GO gage. This is so to allow for variations in wear and manufacturing tolerances of each individual receiver.

You can use a M1903 bolt in a M1903A3 and visa versa. Please obtain at least one headspace gage and use it. The amount of money you have been spending on 03s go ahead and get two, Brownells.

Regrettably, there are dealers who know how to fake many things, some of which is “original wrap/packaging”. Sarco has a spotty reputation, I gave up on them about 15-20 years ago. However I have been told that they are doing much better now and then, maybe not.

Let us give Sarco the benefit of the doubt, and maybe the manufacture screwed up and then some how your barrel made it thru factory inspection. It would still be out of US spects, If you go back to Sarco on this they can say, ‘we sent you a good barrel it must be the yours or the gunsmiths fault, anyway it is safe to shoot’. And it could be your receiver, did you or the gunsmith check it with a Field Test Bolt. Did he check for lug seat setback??? And it could be your bolt.

The rifle is safe to shoot, if the measurement of the headspace bothers you do as Calif-Steve says and try a new M1903A3 bolt, might help a bit. If not,, shoot the rifle.

Just mark it up to education.

45B20

[milsurpmjt]

The gunsmith said he checked it with a "field gauge" and it would not close on it so it was safe to shoot. He didn't say anything about lug setback.

[45B20]

IF that barrel you supplied to the gunsmith was a ‘new’ barrel and was tightened until the index marks were aligned (one on the receiver and one on the barrel) the bolt should not have closed on a GO gage. That chamber should have required additional reaming (slight amount) in order for the bolt to even close on the GO gage. IF when the gunsmith installed that barrel, index marks aligned , and with out him doing any chamber reaming, he inserted the bolt and then the bolt closed on the GO gage and then on the NO GO gage-----SOMETHING IS WRONG----As he said,, the rifle is safe to shoot, it did not close on the FIELD gage, so IT IS SAFE to shoot. BUT the headspace should NOT be that large.

IF that barrel is new, then the problem lies with either your bolt or your receiver or both. If the gunsmith saw no obvious set back in the receiver were the bolt lugs seat,, then the problem is most likely your bolt is worn. (I would feel better if the gunsmith had measured the seats, but that is his call.) To test this a Field Test Bolt is used, (this is NOT a headspace gage) it is a special bolt held to the min. manufacturing tolerances. The Field Test Bolt IS use with a FIELD headspace gage. It tells if the bolt is worn out or the receiver is worn out. If the Field Test Bolt closes on a FIELD gage this tells you the receiver is worn out, if the Field Test Bolt does not close on a Field gage this tells you that the bolt is worn out. In your case, just get a new bolt and see if that makes the headspace tighter. But you must use a headspace gage to find out. And let me repeat, YOUR RIFLE IS SAFE TO FIRE AS IT IS.

Now if a new bolt changes the headspace little or none at all and there is no bolt lug seat set back in the receiver---THEN you are back to the barrel being the problem.

Buy a new bolt or shoot the rifle the way it is, makes no difference.

But you should understand how the M1903 is made and how it works and its limits. You should know enough to ask the right questions and understand what the gunsmith tells you and when someone is BSing you. Buy a copy of TM 9-1270 “Ordnance Maintenance, U,S, Rifle, Cal. .30, M1903, M1903A1, M1903A3 and M1903A4” Jan 1944. Read especially Section III, Inspection. This will save you this confusion and perhaps some money.

Gages

When specifications are drawn up for a cartridge, there are dimensions for this cartridges and there are tolerances for these dimensions, a minimum and a maximum. The US Military wants to be sure that their weapons will chamber all cartridges with in this tolerances range. Sam wants to be sure that his firearms will chamber the largest cartridge that will be available.. Sooo, the GO gage is made to the dimensions of the maximum cartridge. The head space gages go up from there in 0.001” steps.

Actually most ammo is in the mid-range of these tolerances so you can have a rifle that will not close on a GO gage and will chamber a round. However this can cause problems if you run across cartridges that are at the max dimensions. If you can tolerate these restriction and when installing a new 03 barrel you do not even need to deepen the chamber although the bolt would not close on a GO Gage. Just be certain of your ammo.

Field Test Bolt

In WWI the bolt lug length was held to” -0.509” +0.5105, during WWII the bolt lug length was held to:
-0.509” +0.511”. The lugs on the Field Test Bolt were 0.509”.

45B20

[Chuckindenver]

ok,
lets be the devils advocate...first,, SARCO is known for selling used parts as new, as well as import reproductions as GI...amoung other things, likely thats the case....all new replacement A3 barrels made after 9-43 were short chambered.
another issue you may have is a stretched receiver,, id need more info on that, to be more correct.. pictures, maker, serial ect.
and finally...
this whole thing of just turn the shoulder back,,,brings that headspace right up...its easy.... NOT!!
anyone who says that has never done one.
heres how that happens.
you turn the should back just enought to get one complete turn from the barrel, remember the A3 has a square thread, so your taking a lot of that shoulder.
but you forgot the big picture....ok, now you taken the shoulder back,, now my bolt wont go in....sure it wont.... you have to turn the chamber face in the same amount that the shoulder was done, then recut the bolt notch on the right side of the chamber face...remember, the A3 has a coned breach...and you have to use a special cutter to do that job..
then walk over to a mill and recut that extractor notch... no mill? will get out a hand file, tape the edges accross the notch so you dont bugger it up, and file the notch,.. might get lucky and get that done in a hour,
then... re cut the chamber, only now, you may have a step as the old chamber was likely over sized a bit...
so,,,, now, figure an hours lathe time and 2 set ups. most charge 75.00 an hour. plus a 45.00 set up.
now add an hour mill time or hours labor....75.00 in most cases...
then reinstall the barrel... thats another charge, and finsih ream it again..another charge...
why all these charges you ask? this wasnt the gunsmiths fault, he did what he was suppposed to do, and from what you said,, did it right.. id bet if you used a GI set of headspace gages that it would gage right up, and likely be a little short.
if your barrel pased field reject then it is safe to use, your bolt may be the issue as well, many bolts are worn from manual of arms training...

one question...what maker is the receiver???Remington Smith Corona or other.

[gjungle56]

Do you guys really use the witness marks for index? I have found that they are sometimes close but seldom right on. I line these up by the perpendicular center line of the receiver and the perpendicular center line of the bore and front sight keyway.

[Chuckindenver]

iv rebarreld hundreds of 03,s A3,s and 1917,s, and have yet to find one that was off, i have seen them off on M1 Carbines, and Krags.

[LeagleEagle]

I recall that back in '03 I had Eric Pierce of National Match Armory make me one of his match '03 rifles. Sent him an '03 and a "new" Remington 8-43 barrel I'd bought from Sarco to install. He said it was WAY out of spec, so I had him install a Krieger instead. Have heard that Sarco is really inconsistent quality wise.