Your thoughts on this "No. 4 T"

[Giove]

It seems, to me, an "indian" sniper rifle.

Serial number, then, is correct, I think.

[Roger Payne]

Hi Gil. I've got a nice B1941 4T somewhere that retains most of its blued finish. I'll see if I can find a photo of it.

[browningautorifle]

The thing I see here is there's so much conjecture, vastly differing that it would be a good one to perhaps pass by unless it's priced very, very right... Too much possibility here for a stung buyer I think. To much "Maybe".

[CINDERS]

Well if the original poster pulls the trigger on it they are up to having the scope repaired straight away as by the look of it there is no straight bit of wire for the crows to sit on an added cost before a shot is fired. If its really "Dirt cheap" go for it the going rate here for just a T no CES is around the $7k mark for a good one cobbled togethers or faux pas go for about 3k +- with the correct scope may not be colminated but the scopes a No.32

[Gil Boyd]

I think Steve has had some expert advice on what he has presented.......pass on this one IMHO, and keep your eye out for a good one, and my recommendation would be, from someone off this site

[Roger Payne]

Hi Gil. I know Steve762 has decided against the rifle in question, but just out of interest here's my B1941 early H&H conversion to 4T. Note it's been blued over rough machining marks, indicative of the pressure the country was under at the time. It also lacks all of the 'typical' H&H 4T markings. However, I know the provenance of this rifle & it's impeccable!

ATB

[Gil Boyd]

Roger,
Nice one and interesting to see it so pronounced on that early example.
Agree also with these rifles, you do need to know your stuff and what to look out for, as dates and stamps appeared to be all over the place at times and in various countries.
There are some "proper" indicators on Steve's proposed rifle but also a couple that make it appear to be a bitza. One has to say, had the seller known a bit more of its background it may have stacked up and been worth a punt.........but as always, you buy the rifle not the tale!!

This link to spotting a fake on the site is always a good reminder and a good read:

http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?...)-Sniper-Rifle

[Seaforth72]

The so-called "Ishapore screw" indicates that it almost certainly came out of Indian service. They seemed to like shiny bluing. An original bracket that I had which came mismatched on an ex-Indian service Long Branch No. 4 MK. I* (T) sniper rifle had a very shiny blued refinish.

The electric pencilled serial number on the socket is not a concern for me as I have seen that style of serial number marking before. The upside down ENGLAND - not an issue. It was just a mark put on a surplus rifle by, I am sure, a very bored worker after the war. There is a faint inspection mark to the right of the bolt in the body just forward of the cocking piece. One would want to check the marks on both sides. The matching scope number is the only one there, is stamped very lightly compared to so many others that I have seen, yet is on an "S51" marked butt. Replaced fore end is from a No. 4 MK. 2 apparently. Was the trigger mounting also changed? The butt has the Mk. II swivel, typical on late war British sniper rifles, which made it much easier to fit an M1907 sling with its claws.

The scope bracket, Dalgish N92 marked, has obviously had an earlier rifle serial number milled out and this rifle SN marked on (round topped "3" rather than typical British flat topped "3"). The person numbering it seems to have used a "B' first time around, realized their error and remarked it "R".

The most suspicious feature for me is that the butt has the S51 and the lightly stamped single scope serial number on the wrist matches BUT the bracket has obviously been renumbered. I would want to see the butt removed to see what if any rifle SN is hidden and carefully check marks beside the bolt and on the barrel. I doubt is the spares system had British made "S51" marked butts with no scope number marked. The butt is English made so was no taken off of a Stevens-Savage No. 4 MK. I (T.LESS TELESCOPE) or No. 4 MK.I* (T. LESS TELESCOPE) which has the "S51" mark and cheek rest, and rifle SN but no scope number. The scenario appears to be that the bracket was changed in service, but that the the same scope, an early one at that, was retained on the rifle.


Opinion - May be real No. 4 MK. I (T), reworked in the Indian Army system, but some doubt remains.

[Roger Payne]

I have my doubts that it's ever been to India. It has a Mk2 fore end on it that bears the 'Ishy' screw, but who fitted it to the barrelled action is anybody's guess.
The serial number lightly engraved is fine & typical of the time. I was in my gunroom a little earlier looking at AV02XX & it's just as lightly done.
My gut feeling is that the metalwork of the rifle is genuine but the wood, scope, & bracket have been added after the event. In my limited experience N22 butts are only commonly found on late (1945) 4T's. I wouldn't want to push the issue, but if I had to bet on it I'd go for it being off another rifle of late manufacture. It could be from one of the less telescope rifles, which would explain why there appears to be only the one scope number on it. The front guard is clearly not original to the rifle, & the bracket has had its original rifle number milled out & crudely & unconvincingly replaced with the current rifle number. Being a 43 rifle it may well not have both the D6E & the E7E stamps on it. Many just have the BSA factory examiners' mark of E7E on the right side (bolt handle side) of the bolt guide way, but at some point in 1943 the D6E started to be applied to the LHS as well.

ATB

[smle addict]

I don't mean to keep picking at nits, but as I was looking over the first post, picture #12, the underneath of the forearm, that looks like a "P" over "56" or "66". That is a Pakistani marking, is it not? Same photo, the end cap looks like it also has a "P" over a two-digit number. I have seen POF No4's with and without that "ishy" screw. On this side of country (west coast), I have seen several POF No4 Mk2 stock sets for sale. Some have been at gun shows, some advertised on line.