Warner & Swasey scope mounted on a Patt. 14 (T)?

[Simon]

I've got a scan of the original wartime bracket drawings for the P14 / Warner Combo somewhere in my archive files, I'll see if I can find it.

I've also heard some late (Great) war production S.M.L.E. were fitted with the Warner & Swasey scope. I've seen a couple of 1918 dated rifles marked with a C/I\ on the knoxform and other Canadian property marks which appear to have been drilled for a Warner but have never been able to locate a drawing of the bracket.

Cheers,
Simon.

Found it.

Cheers,
Simon.

Information

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[Simon]

Just as a matter of interest how many here are aware that there was a bracket designed for fitting the No32 to the P14 and that a number of examples did actually make it into production?

Before you ask yes, I've got those drawings in the archive too.

Cheers,
Simon

[wbs2111]

The P14 bracket/base appears to be a more solid wider "foot" affair without the fancy radius cut in the "foot." The '03 is setting more on sculpted, radiused "feet" and the p14 appears to be on sturdier columns. It also appears to not have the dovetail extended beyond the front "foot" as does the '03 mount. Having all the receivers side by side, a No1, a P14, an '03 and a 1910 it would seem all 4 brackets/bases would be different. The '03 is a "small ring" type action, using mauser terminology, smooth in radius at the mounting point from front to rear. The P14 and the No1 are "large ring", again mauser terminology, stepped receivers, both with a different radius. The Ross has a round chamber "ring" and a flat, right angle to the bore and then angled receiver section. Add in the Ross .22 sniper trainer and the Bennett Mercie mg, Brophys reproduction and the "flat", no "footed" US reproduction and you get 8 different bracket/base possibilities out there. Quite amazing when taking into consideration how inadequate/almost abismal the scope and its mounting system has always been considered.

[jmoore]

Just noticed that the Ross sniper in the Quartermaster stores (2008) has a bracket machined differently from the one illustrated in Skinnerton's British sniper book, so yet another variant!

Considering that the Ross rifles were retired before WWII, it might be possible their brackets were robbed and modified to fit the P'14's. Depending on when the P'14 was built it seems more likely that the armourer would use what was at hand or make a new bracket from scratch, rather than trying to find obsolete bits originating in another country.

The extention of the Ross bracket extends forwards, whilst the '03 had a rearward extention from the mounting feet. (A small visual clue, but it might help ID'ing the P'14's bracket origins.)

[Surpmil]

A well-informed (ie: expert) friend once told me he saw one in Alberta in the 1950s. According to the book "Without Warning", 80 W&S scopes were taken to the UK by the 1st Canadian Division in 1939, which were to be fitted to P14 rifles. Another 80 were requested in May 1940. As the photos in that book show, some were definitely converted. (Interestingly, the book also mentions a UK request to Canada to supply Ross rifles with telescopic sights in "early 1940". The reply was that there were none to spare)

The second lot of 80 may not have been delivered however, as the returns quoted in the book show 385 W&S scopes in Canada in 1938 and 267 W&S scopes with rifles in Canada in late 1943 (some were used for sniper training in Canada) There should have been only 225 W&S scopes in Canada if the second lot of 80 were shipped to the UK, UNLESS the 385 number was erroneous and more W&S scopes were 'found' in store after 1938/39.

That would seem to be possible as only 213 W&S/Ross MkIII sets actually got to France in WWI reportedly, out of the 500 sets made up by 1917. It seems rather unlikely that 115 W&S sights and their matching rifles were lost in action in WWI or ended up in museums etc., though some obviously did, and some were no doubt scrapped after WWI as being B.E.R.

An inventory taken in Canada in 1923 recorded 211 Ross MkIII with bases for W&S scopes, and 357 W&S scopes. The inventory of 1937/38 reported 385 W&S scopes and 208 rifles. So unless the W&S scopes were quietly reproducing in stores, obviously there was some misreporting of totals!

Apparently most of the rifles were held in Ontario and most of the scopes in Quebec! (Canadians will understand) and it seems likely to me that some of the rifles were not recognized as being sniper rifles, having only the relatively small side rail to distinguish them from normal MkIII Rosses, of which there were over 100,000 in store at that time.

Reportedly 177 more bases for W&S scopes to fit Ross MkIII rifles were to be made up at the "Quebec Arsenal" (Longue Pointe O.D. perhaps?) in 1938/39, so that all the W&S scopes could be fitted to rifles. As the total number of Ross rifles with W&S scopes fitted had 'grown' by 1943 to 267 in Canada, I would guess that either more Ross rifles with bases were 'found' in stores, or at least 59 rifles had bases fitted from the 177 bases possibly made up. If they were, perhaps another 80 or so of those 177 bases were taken to the UK in 1939 with the W&S scopes and there adapted to the P14s, probably by Canadian armourers.

There are lots of little mysteries around these subjects. There's an account by an Australian officer serving in a British battalion in France in 1944 that two of his snipers had "Canadian Ross rifles" and he describes an incident where with the aid of an artillery range finder, they dropped a German officer at about 1000 yards, so it was not just an off-the-cuff remark.

Incidentally, it is often repeated, including in "Without Warning" that the removal of the bullet drop scale from the case of the W&S caused the hermetic seal to be lost. Not correct; the holes are blind. Here's a photo of the guts of one. Amazingly crude and heavy given the complexity and comparative weakness of the adjustment mechanism.

[jmoore]

Thanks much for the additional details! Only read "Without Warning" once, mixed good and bad feelings about it are all that remain in the brainpan about the tome.

Your info would help explain the two styles of Ross brackets seen.

[Surpmil]

It's a good read with a lot of original research, I recommend it. I've heard there was a problem with the proofs being lost in a computer crash and the text having to be reconstructed or something to that effect, which shows in places. Well worth getting though.

[Surpmil]

Well, that answers the question about the bases being similar to the Ross base, and made in the Quebec Arsenal. Obviously not!

Do you think the 80(?) W&S scopes were fitted at RSAF Enfield then?

That gives us the screw hole pattern to look out for on P14s as well.

[wbs2111]

Another varient on the Rifle No3 (P14) base. The picture posted in this thread and in the books "Without Warning" and "Out of Nowhere" has a base mounted on the side of the receiver that is clearly like that of the Ross/03. No visible overbore pad drilled and tapped in the picture as this base would have to be. Interesting to note it is an adaptation of or to the No3 MkI * (T) Patt. 1918 mounting set up. It shows the beveled sectioning of the left ear on the rear sight and would bet that the numbers for spacing on the pad holes would be spot on as well. The drawing is dated 7-2-40, what a step backwards from the Patt. 1918 overbore setup on the No3. Wonder if it was an attempt to re-utilize the rifles with "New/Surplus" scopes in stores.

[Surpmil]

....The picture posted in this thread and in the books "Without Warning" and "Out of Nowhere" has a base mounted on the side of the receiver that is clearly like that of the Ross/03.

I'd agree after taking another look. The base shown on the P14 in "Without Warning" does look like it is aligned with the axis of the bore vertically, whereas this mount is considerably higher. Perhaps too much so.

So, I go back to the theory that the bases were modified Ross type taken to England with the scopes in 1939.

If the P14 W&S base drawing that has been kindly reproduced above was dated 7th February 1940 that would be before the request to Canada for scope-equipped Rosses made in May 1940 (No doubt made after the German attack in the West on May 10th.)

Perhaps the Ross was considered unsuitable from a maintenance point of view at that quiet point in the war (that is during the "Phoney War" before May 10th) and it was intended to provide for the possibility of re-using the W&S scopes from the Rosses on P14s.

If it was dated 2nd of July 1940, the sense of urgency must have been considerably greater! I still wonder where they thought the Ross sights were going to come from; perhaps the apparent "surplus" in Canadian stores, or from the USA? The 7000 odd US W&S Mod 1913 scopes had all been sold off as surplus long before though IIRC.

Would it have been worthwhile to make up mounts for the 100 odd "surplus" scopes in Canada alone? Would the authorities in the UK not have been advised that extra bases were being made in Canada to refit all the scopes to Ross rifles and/orP14s? Perhaps not.

One wonders if a significant number of the "missing" 100+ W&S scopes from the 500 procured in WWI were still in the UK in 1940 - was the drawing prepared to re-use these perhaps? Or just 'in case' of some other scenario?

Given that there were still plenty of men around who remembered that the great defect of the W&S was the lack of any means of tightening the scope onto the dovetail base, it's surprising the proposed mount doesn't address that with say, a couple of set screws coming through the male dovetail from the bolt handle side. Of course it would have been easy enough to have drilled and tapped the bronze dovetail mount on the scope and put a knurled screw or two in that the soldier could tighten by hand to get the same effect. AFAIK that was not done, so the soldiers using the W&S in WWII had to deal with the same slop in the mounts their fathers did!

It all shows again the folly of breaking up the SMLE sniper rifles after WWI.