Grenade (Smoke?) Discharger

[Peter Laidler]

That's a bit scary JM. Would/could the BATF do such a thing? Even if to just entrap the unwary or unwise? Phew...........

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[jmoore]

Usually not. However, its not unknown for them to have used someone else to instigate a procescutable offense. Thus, no direct entrapment dramas. Its rare,, but i can think of a couple of instances that I know about directly. Its just best to steer away from "sin", regardless.

Of course, with the proper paperwork and a US$ 200 tax stamp it would be perfectly legal in most states. So why tempt the wrath of the powers that be! NFA dealers and owners usually display their status on the table....

[Peter Laidler]

On a similar vein JM, what would the consequences be if as a buyer, you were acting in all innocence and good faith?

I ask because in the UK, while common sense is a virtue, it doesn't seem to feature where weaponry is concerned. It HAS happened but.............

[Terry Hawker]

Don't know the name of the particular dealer involved, but, here is an entrapment incident I heard about that can be verified by Paul Milbury, who has recently moved his business, Military Historical Arms and Antiques, out of Glendale, California, to enjoy the freedom of Globe, Arizona.

Evidently a pair of BATF agents wanted to provoke an illegal sale of a fully automatic arm by taking a Thompson to a reputable dealer's business and offering it for sale to him. The agents were sure they had a collar when the dealer told them to wait a minute, as he wanted to take the submachine gun into his back room, for a closer look. They weren't quite so happy a few minutes later when the dealer returned to the front of the store, after having run a very valuable piece of history through his metal cutting band saw. When he handed them the two pieces of the now destroyed Thompson, he told them that the weapon was illegal, the sale they had proposed was a flagrant violation of BATF regulations and to get out of his store. The thoroughly chagrined agents were even more embarrassed when it was learned the now worthless Thompson had been borrowed from a museum.

Terry

[jmoore]

I've heard that story also.

Captain Laidler: I believe "ignorance of the law is no excuse" applies to those folk (or insert a less kind term). Usually, these things only happen when there's not much else to fill the agency's time, or there's a political agenda behind it. Generally, the people the agency is more interested in are the habitual "baddies".

Actually, there's a much greater chance that if a roaming ATF agent sees such a device drug out of the woodwork to sell at a show, he'll wait for a sale to occur whilst observing from the sidelines. Then there's a better chance at least one of the participants DOES know there's something "out of spec". Again it doesn't happen often, and people get away w/ the craziest stuff for years w/o consequence, and not just at shows, but everywhere.

As for me, I don't want any part of it. I've enough regular dramas in my life!

(Oddly enough, ATF agents I've met in recent years seem to have much better attitudes and are usually more knowlegable than those in the '80s. The shop where I worked part time whilst going to school was only three miles from the regional headquarters, so we got plenty of OJT visits from trainers and trainees. In '86 that was cut WAY back due to new laws.)

[Sgt Brown]

Bottom line is the piece might have made a nice addition to my collection (?) but the funny feeling I got possibly saved my butt. Glad I walked away.

Now, about that LEGAL DeLisle carbine I keep dreaming about......

Tom

[jmoore]

Oh, yeah, me too! (Apparently the Valkyrie (sp?) reproduction was fairly disappointing.)

[RJW NZ]

Notwithstanding stories one hears, I've personnaly seen undercover feds of some kind operating in at least three shows, Ventura where they approached me but obviously later learned the rules about C&R rifles 'cos no one came knockin, Glendale where they entrapped a hapless looking gent and took him away through the middle of the show over a handgun, or a too short rifle barrel? they had for sale themselves, and Tuscon, where a small group of them sat in a room overlooking the show and had a large sheet covering the glass so we couldn't see in. At the same time they had a van cruising the car park with the side door open video taping the license plates of every car parked there. This we surmised was to stop cars with Ca plates at the Az/Ca border 300 miles away down the 10 fwy, and checking them for carrying guns across a state border. When I drove back to Ca there was a bunch more activity at the border that night.
Later there was a slight newspaper story about a prosecution or two, it wasn't hard to put the dates together.

Bottom line is, we all have opinions on this stuff, but they're out there, and its easier to obey the law than to buck it.

Re Terry; Quote: Don't know the name of the particular dealer involved, but, here is an entrapment incident I heard about that can be verified by Paul Milbury, who has recently moved his business, Military Historical Arms and Antiques, out of Glendale, California, to enjoy the freedom of Globe, Arizona.Unquote:

Hio Terry, do you know if Paul is open for business in Globe, or did he give it away?
Can you imagine what it took to empty out his Glendale store!!
For those who don't know, Paul was a loyal enfielder , with a classic little gun shop crammed, and I mean crammed, with a hundred years of history, rifles and parts, he could out yarn me any day I went there.

[Peter Laidler]

Delisles....... When I was writing the Sten Gun book, I took a couple of Delisles onto the range with silenced Stens and L34 Sterlings and even using pretty basic sound recording equipment, and hardly scientific, the silenced Sterling was the quietest followed by the Sten Mk2S.

I think that the DeLisle is one of those enigmatic things