Can anyone ID these markings on an Underwood?

[Johnny Peppers]

The odds of you having a leand lease carbine are very small indeed. There once was a company called Interarms that had warehouses in the London area full of just about every military rifle ever made. They also had buildings in Virginia and would import firearms from the UK all the time. The law in the UK is that if a firearm is to leave the country it must be proof fired before it leaves and be so marked just like your carbine. Interarms imported many thousands of carbines into the country before 1968 when the importers information had to be stamped on the firearm.

Actually any firearm sold commercially in England had to go through either the Birmingham or London proof house. A brand new firearm imported from the U.S. that was to be sold commercially in England had to be proofed. As long as the firearms sent to England through the Lend-Lease program remained in government hands, they did not have to be proofed, but once released for sale they had to be proofed regardless of whether they were to remain in the country or be exported.

[topaz]

I think there`s not enough info out to come to any ans. I don`t see carbine`s with those marking to often. time will tell.

[LimeyCarbineLover]

Does it have a stamp with "Not English Make"...on it like many suplus lend lease US origin weapons denoting non standard ammo size on it anywhere....

As a sidenote the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) Northern Ireland Police forces had M1 carbines in the inventory way into the 1980s.

Regards

Lloyd

[Johnny Peppers]

Does it have a stamp with "Not English Make"...on it like many suplus lend lease US origin weapons denoting non standard ammo size on it anywhere....

Regards

Lloyd

The NOT ENGLISH MAKE requirement was dropped with the 1955 Proof Law. At the same time the the crown over a circle NP Birmingham nitro proof was changed to the crown over BNP, and the caliber, case length, and proof charge were required.
This is a Colt 1911A1 with the post 1954 Birmingham proofs showing the caliber, case length, and proof charge along with the Crown/BNP proofs. The proof charge is shown as 7 TONS PER SQUARE (symbol for square) INCH (symbol for inch).

[Hercules Powder]

Lloyd,

Where is the ”Not English Made” stamped?

My understanding on M1 Garand Lend Lease guns they painted a red band around the handguard with 30-06 painted with black letters. Do you know if they painted a band around M1 carbines handguards too?

I have a Lend Lease Garand with the proof stamps behind the operating slide and a faint trace of red paint around the handguard. I also have another Garand with British proof on the barrel behind the front sight (not Lend Lease).

One has Birmingham proof the other is London proof, but I don’t remember which is which off the top of my head.

John

[Johnny Peppers]

The first Lend-Lease M1 Rifles released for sale were stamped in the chamber area, but it didn't take long to figure out that it would be much easier to stamp the barrel between the gas cylinder rings. I have seen Lend-Lease both ways, and all I have seen were post 1954 proofs.

[LimeyCarbineLover]

Hercules Power.....i was always led to beleive that the red band was for British Home Guard use during WW2....for M1903 and M1917 Rifles and also BARs supplied by the US for our "Dads Army"....that is why at one time we had a lot of WW1 surplus US weapons over here....the red band denoted non standard (not .303) ammo.

Thanks Johnny i didnt know that.....My .38 Victory has the Not English Make stamps on.

regards

Lloyd

[Mikey51]

LimeyCarbineLover. Can you supply any info on the RUC Carbines at all ? Pics, serials, RUC IDENTIFYING MARKS ??? Where they came from, where they are now ? This is just another subject we are looking for info on. Many Thanks. Mike.

[Sleeplessnashadow]

The data for the carbines provided by Lend-Lease is indicated in Colt 45 Service Pistols: Models of 1911 and 1911A1 by Charles W. Clawson (self published, 1993). Clawson indicates his source for the data as Table LL-14, War Dep't Lend-Lease shipments, 1941-1945, US Army in WWII Statistics, OCMH, Special Staff, US Army, Historical Manuscript File, pp 28-29, RG 156, WNRC.

Total Lend-Lease 1941-1945: 25,362 M1 Carbines

In 1963 U.S. Congress initiated yearly reports to Congress from DoD of military assistance to foreign nations, including the Military Assistance Program (MAP) and Foreign Military Sales (FMS). The data for prior MAP and FMS between 1951 (first year assistance and sales was restarted) and 1963 (beginning of the yearly reports) was provided collectively to Congress in 1964. The National Archives has these yearly reports and for the period 1951-1963 they show Britain received 175,404 Carbines, M1 and/or M2.

Total MAP/FMS between 1951 & 1963: 175.404 M1/M2 Carbines

Britain provided carbines to the police forces throughout the British Empire/Commonwealth including the Hong Kong Police, Royal Ulster Constabulary and Bermuda Police. I have a letter from the Hong Kong Police Museum indicating their carbines were marked either HKP or RHKP. The HKP appears on the bottom of the trigger housing and the bottom of the bayonet lug. Century Arms purchased these carbines from Hong Kong and some of them ended up in the USA. I have fotos of at least one. The RUC has been a mystery Mikey and I have been interested in for several years.

I also have the data for M1 and M1A1 Carbines dropped by the OSS during WWII and also the Bristish SOE to the French Resistance during WWII. OSS pulled the carbines from U.S. supplies in Britain, SOE puled the carbines from British supply depots, so I would guess they were Lend-Lease.

The SOE and HKP carbines do not have British proof marks. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on the next one, but I believe the carbines were not proofed by the Brits until they were made available to private company exporters and/or civilians.

Jim
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