Argentino M1879 Rolling Block. Is it worth restoring?

[Patrick Chadwick]

["Where do you keep that thing, your bathtub?"
- No, but I had to build a special carrying case to fit into the boot of mycar.

"We used to joke that the real name of Sarco was “Shallow Water Storage” but I think you’ve got them beat by a mile."
- I think someone "privatised" it when new, as there are no unit markings on it at all, so it never got to a regiment, let alone a soldier. And also none of the dings that appear even when a rifle is just shunted around an arsenal. Woodworm and rot. The privateer must have stored it in his barn or roof for the next century, lying on the side that looks so impressively archaeological. Fortunately he plugged the bore before hiding and forgetting it.

"The owner of the rifle accepted my offer and I’ll pick it up Monday."
Great news!

"I would like to get the stains out of the stock and put some oil on it. What would get them out and what oil would approximate the original that Remington would have used?"
Whoa! Not so fast! That is cosmetics, we are going to checkout the barrel first.

"The action will probably need to be completely taken apart and all of the rust killed."
Yep, you can be sure of that.

" I was thinking of using Evapo-rust..."
Don't know that stuff. What is the chemical basis?

"... or making my own electrolytic rust killer with a DC power supply and baking soda. Any body used either of these? "
Yes, in combination with an ultrasonic cleaner that will free up the backsight without brute force being required.

"Either way the metal will end up in the white and very prone to rust. I’ll need something that works good to stop any additional rust."
True, but no problem if you follow what Grandpa says, without cutting corners!

"Would it be ok to refinish as long as I stayed true to Remington’s original finishing methods?"
I don't know what those methods were, but I will be posting a list of things you should have for a start. Your cash expenditure will be low. The time will be considerable.

More later (the shopping list). Off to the range now, with one of the world's first purpose-built small-bore .22 trainers - take a look on the 22 forum!

Patrick

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[killforfood]

I’ve been doing some digging and found a site that has spare parts if I need them.
They sell a reproduction cleaning rod that I definitely do need.
Untitled Document

I also found a couple images that would indicate that Remington was Color Case Hardening during this era. I wish I had the time and money to learn CCH. It’s such a beautiful art.





I also found this exploded view that should prove helpful.



I still don’t know how Remington treated the stocks but I’m guessing linseed oil.

It’s hard not to get ahead of myself; you would think I was having a baby. Is it Monday yet?





Patrick,

Very impressive what you accomplished with that old and rusty 1871. I would have loved to have seen the fancy Frenchman’s faces when you nearly swept them with it.
Reminds me of my friend that likes to beat up on all of the high dollar over-under crowd at the trap club. He uses an old rusty 870. The last time I stopped by to pick him up for some trap shooting, he just tossed the old beater into the bed of my pickup and it bounced around back there all the way to the club. He only missed one clay that night and out shot everybody.
I have another friend up the street with an FFL. He handles a lot of estate sales. He’s going to keep an eye out for old rifles just like your old 1871. I told him that if Bubba hasn’t totally trashed them that I’d buy the junkers.

Evapo rust is just one of many rust removers that rely on the Chelation process.
I found many references about good old Molasses doing just as good a job though.
Here’s a quote from some Australian chemist that explains it pretty well.

Question
I have a friend who uses molasses to clean rust off old iron items collected from the bush. The rusty iron article is placed in a jar of molasses solution (nine parts water, one part molasses) and left for two weeks. After this time, the article comes out clean and almost shiny. What is happening here?

Answer
“Molasses contains chelating agents. These are made of molecules that are shaped a bit like the claws of a crab--the word chelating comes directly from the Latin word chele, meaning claw. They can envelop metal atoms on the surface of an object, trapping them and removing them. Molasses owes its properties to cyclic hydroxamic acids which are powerful chelators of iron.

More of these compounds are found if the molasses is derived from sugar beet rather than cane sugar. The plants from which molasses is made presumably use these chelating agents to help them extract minerals from the soil. Interestingly, there are aerobic microorganisms that use similar cyclic hydroxamic acids to scavenge iron. So plants and microbes appear to use the same chelation strategy to obtain their daily ration of iron.

The same process is at work when you clean old coins with vegemite or cola. The power of chelating agents also explains why the insides of tomato tins need to be lacquered. The citric acid in the tomatoes would dissolve the metal of the container if the lacquer were not present. Household cleaning agents, especially detergents and shampoos, also rely on chelation. These soften water to make it more effective during the cleaning process.

Chelation has its uses in medicine, too. EDTA or ethylenediamine tetraacetic acid is used as a chelating agent to control levels of calcium in the body and can reduce the effects of mercury or lead poisoning.”

Ben Selinger, Department of Chemistry, Australian National University. Ben Selinger is the author of Chemistry in the Marketplace and Why the Watermelon will not Ripen in your Armpit (Allen & Unwin)

That’s all fun and interesting but I can cobble together an electrolytic rust remover for next to nothing and probably achieve similar results without attracting a house full of flys.

I don't know what those methods were, but I will be posting a list of things you should have for a start. Your cash expenditure will be low. The time will be considerable.

Looking forward to it!
By the way, one of my friends calls me “Hand File”. I’ll spend all day hand shaping a part rather than pay the parts man a nickel.
I’m all about “Your cash expenditure will be low. The time will be considerable”.

Is it Monday yet?

[colfi]

As most of the other guys have said.

Take a good look at it and clean it, then assess the barrel and springs. your rifle looks all original and untouched, well worth saving.

I have several of these Argentinian RB's, they are 11.15x58 calibre, the EN on the barrel flat says it's an Army issue. Even what looks like a 'bad' bore will shoot well, cases can be easily made from the .348 Winchester ones, and if you do need action springs, send me a PM as I have a lot of parts, actions, trigger guards with springs and screws, I can set you up with what you need.

It's a good rifle to shoot, more powerful than your average BP RB, plus it has the later rotary extractor. As to your woodwork, try an Oxalic acid solution on the oil stained areas, this will bleach the muck out and a rub with linseed/turps (50/50) mix will restore the color.

Keep us up to date and good luck

Col

[Patrick Chadwick]

Keep us up to date and good luck

Are we thinking of the same rifle??? Have you read the previous 17 pages?

[jamie5070]

If you are going to restore it, keep checking e-pay and gunbroker for parts and barrels (if the barrel is bad). The action alone is worth $100-$150.
john

[Patrick Chadwick]

Why are you reading this when you could be getting your rifle!!

Patrick

[killforfood]

Geez Patrick,

I’m a gun addict in desperate need of my next gun fix… And you toy with me.
I’m just glad there is a pond that separates us. Otherwise in my current uncontrolled needy state of mind, I would be forced to strip your gun cabinet bare. The last glimpse of your beloved treasures would be tightly wrapped in my greedy arms as I gleefully romped off into the woods screaming
“MINE, ALL MINE, HA, HA, Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha….”

Actually I’m jealous, if I were in your time zone, I would have it by now.
As we say in church “God willing and the creeks don’t rise” I should have some new pictures up tonight.

Joel.

[killforfood]

Well my new baby is finally home!!!





So first off let’s look at that bore you’ve all been bugging me to see.
The breech end looks surprisingly good. Yah there’s some junk in there but considering that I haven’t even ran a single patch through it, I’d say the rifling is very serviceable.









I’m afraid the muzzle isn’t quite as nice as the breech but I think after it’s de-rusted it might not be too bad. The muzzle may have been back bored because the rifling is barely visible right at the end. I won't know for sure until I clean out the rust though.








Looking at the outside of the muzzle, it appears that it was stored muzzle down in a leaky basement.







My next major concern will be freeing up the rusted solid rear site.
Under all of that rust are still legible lines and numbers.







I can find very little in the way of stamps on the metal parts and to be honest they’re kind of boring compared to some of the European artistry.










There are also a few wood cartouches but they’re no more exciting than the metal stamps.
Does anybody know what these letter stamps signify?









I’m not too worried about the action. I think it will clean up ok and be very serviceable.









One real bright spot on this rifle is that the stock doesn’t have the usual used for a tire iron look. It actually has very little in the way of big dents. Sure it’s badly stained and discolored but I figure you guys will guide me past those issues.







The only place on the stock that may give me a challenge will be the cracks and chips around the cleaning rod slot. Fortunately this is the least visible area and will not be too noticeable.





Well what do you guys think?

How should I proceed from here?

[Patrick Chadwick]

Congratulations!

Be reassured, that rifle was well worth the 50 or even 150. It will obviously shoot, but how well remains to be seen. It looks like a really good prospect for refurbishment, as there are no serious problems with the woodwork.

Later on today I will post the first of what is going to be a series on how to deal with this rifle.

But in the meantime, DO NOT DO ANYTHING TO THAT BARREL JUST YET.
I have seen barrels where someone has obviously used a wire brush and an electric drill to remove rust spots in a barrel. The result was to ruin the rifling as badly as if the barrel had been ringed. The rifling looks quite strong. and by the time we are finished, you may well be positively surprised.

Patrick

[Patrick Chadwick]

Before we get started, I would like to be clear about the direction this is going to take.

The methods I will describe are not those that would be used for a museum restoration. I have talked with museum restorers (Kunsthistorisches Museum Vienna, Veste Coburg, Royal Armouries Museum, Leeds), and their exquisite work is not intended to be handled by grubby fingers on a shooting range at temperatures ranging from the plus thirties down to the minus tens. The "don't touch it, it's antique" attitude is contra-productive if you want to achieve a shooting rifle as the final result.

We (if you are going along with this) are going to refurbish rather than restore - to get the rifle performing as well as it can (for its age and condition). To do what a conscientious user would have done over the last 120 years to keep the rifle in working order, not as a showcase item. This does not cost much money, but it does take time. Think of it as a century of maintenance packed into one operation, and it will be clear that this is not going to be a 5-minute job.

Every now and again I also discover a better way to do something. Someone may well chip in with alternative suggestions and better methods. So much the better, and the old saying that the man who never made a mistake never made anything also applies here.

And the first major mistake I made, early on, was to over-restore a rifle. Encourage by the brilliant examples of "as new" restoration I had seen on the forums, I gave one of my early projects the full treatment - metal stripped, polished and reblued. Wood stripped, dings steamed out - all the tricks. It looked almost like new.

And then the doubts started. I gradually became unhappy - somehow, it did not look quite right. It took me a long time to work out why. In the end, I recognized that, visually, it was an old artefact pretending to be new. I had not restored it, I had falsified it.

A word of caution: once your friends and acquaintances know that you are working on an old rifle, you will receive advice on how to do it from well-meaning people who, quite frankly, do not know what they are talking about. Please check here before trying out anything someone tells you.

And now to the first list. I find it very difficult to make an accurate list, as I have accumulated the tools and materials over years. I have to stop and reflect that you are, presumably, starting pretty much from zero. So the list will not be perfect.

These are some things that are vital to make a start on the metalwork:

A set of the best quality hollow-ground screwdrivers (or hex socket handle plus screwdriver bits) that you can find. Just one ruined system screw in an obsolete thread will make you regret using a cheap, badly fitting screwdriver. I have done that, and it is an expensive way to learn.

A brass (NOT steel) cleaning rod that is long enough to pass right through the barrel from end to end. I have never found one long enough, and made my own from a length of 8mm brass rod drilled and tapped to take a knob at one end and a wire brush or cleaning jag at the other.
Or you can put together shorter sections, as used for muzzle-loader rifles.


Several bronze (much better then brass) bore cleaning brushes for cal.45.
They look like this:


But by the time you are finished, a couple may look like this:


Which is why you need more than one!

A jag to take cleaning patches for cal.45.


A fistful of patches. Square or round - that does not matter.


A spray can of penetrating oil.

Hard-bristle (nylon or brass) brush in "toothbrush" form - or even old toothbrushes - good for cleaning the action.


Plastic boxes to hold the rifle components.

To this end, I strongly suggest that, if you have not already done so, you join a club where there are experienced black-powder or muzzle-loader shooters, as they have know-how that you will need, and can help you get the materials.

As soon as you can, spray penetrating oil down the barrel, if you have not already done so.

To do a good cleaning job, you will have to disassemble the rifle. The exploded diagram that you posted is going to be very helpful.

Another caution: if you make a good job of this rifle, you are likely to become addicted (like me) to turning hopeless-looking wall-hangers into properly functioning rifles again. It is so much more satisfying than just handing over wads of cash for an expensive showpiece.

So order the following two books:

"Military Rifle Disassembly and Reassembly"
by Stuart C. Mowbray & Joe Puleo
ISBN 1-931464-32-4
and
"Remington Rolling Block Military Rifles of the World"
by George Layman
ISBN 1-931464-45-6

And for this and the sections that are to follow - please post progress reports with pics!

End of Part 1