No4 Mk2 Irish Contract

[Frederick303]

Gentlemen:

I have a copy of a letter from the Irish Military archives to Mr. Graham Priest where they lay out in detail what No 4 MK2 rifles went to Ireland and when. I currently have a request for Information in to these same achieves, and I will share the results when they arrive. The request went in November of 2010, expected response in February, (if they are to respond at all). In addition I have been collecting serial numbers of these rifles, and the conditions, with over 240 rifles in the database to date. I also contacted a number of Irish reservists who were present when the rifles were disposed of, as there were multiple sales of these rifles between 1990 and 1996~1997 (some disagreement from different reservist on when the last shipment occurred) I have sent letters to a gunsmithing firm that was involved in at least one of the sales as a local representative, and also wrote and spoke with a Century arms spokesman who would not provide any additional information, but did confirm some information I already knew.

So based on the above, I can summarize the following:

1) Ireland did accept 50,000 No 4 MK 2 rifles; there is no doubt on this. The supposed rifles held back in England is false
2) The lowest serial number is in the 309,xxx range, dated 3/54.
3) Of the Nominal PF range listed in Stratton, only around 31,400 rifles were received in that range. None were shipped in the serial rage above 1/55 PF 350,xxx, very few above PF340,xxx range.
4) Of the remaining 18,600 rifles (approximate) all of them came out of the UF55 A range, the highest serial number range being in the A21,262 range.
5) The reason that there are few “dogs” in the Irish shipments is that the dogs were dumped at sea, and ZF or DP condition rifles were not sold. Currently trying to confirm the numbers of rifles destroyed.
6) Many when sold were in unissued condition, including virtually all of the UF 55 condition rifles. I have the statements of the Irish reservists who were involved in the cataloging of the rifles as they were taken out of storage in Ireland on this and the locations were various Irish military storage depots, not Donnington England as some believe.

Once I have the complete data I will post it here. In doing this research I have found a lot of the commonly held beliefs are wrong and there is a lot of false impressions out there on the Irish contracts, use and sales.

Regards

Frederick303

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Peter Laidler]

Heeeeeeeeey Fred, we, well certainly me, don't dispute anything - yet! All I have said is that the UK Ministry of Supply/Government Ordnance factories only make for and supply to the UK Government. Can you imagine if they just supplied to all and sundry? NO, they make for the Government of the day, on contract. A commercial company, like Bedford trucks or Sterling might make and sell to whoever it wants to - but not the Government factories. All their work is directed through the UK Government of the day. Who they sell it on to is a matter for them and this VERY point was the subject of a major legal court case in the 80's

What I am a bit worried about in such research, and it's only right, correct and fair to say so, is the emphasis being placed on the memory of these 'Irish reservists'. Just a glib point, but did they all make and keep notes?

[Frederick303]

Capt. Laidler,

It is always a pleasure to correspond with you. You may recall (or not) answering some of my questions with regards to Irish marked AM prefix .22 SMLE rifles use as RAF cadets rifles. I would be more than glad to share and possibly have correction from you on what information I have to date on the Irish No 4 MK 2 rifles. The information on the quantities accepted by Ireland and serial number ranges comes directly from the Irish Military archives. I did not get this information, an acquaintance of yours, Mr. Graham Priest did and he very kindly shared the information with me. I currently have a letter into the same archives attempting to close out a few questions I have on the topic.

The information from the reservists was in regard to the disposition of the rifles, when they were sold and what was done with the lesser condition rifles, as well as parts stores. I inquired with these individuals as Century Arms would not tell me how many of the rifles were sold to them or when or if any of the rifles came out of England in the surplus sales that were conducted there in the early 1990’s. (I was trying to track down the common belief that a lot of the rifles were never sent to Ireland). Every individual that had recollection of the surplus sales indicates the rifles were taken out of Irish stores and sent directly to the new world

I also was interested in the armourer service of these rifles; it would seem they did not replace barrels, at least according to those sources I spoke with. When the rifle barrels were worn out, they were used as drill rifles. The cleaning care given the rifles in service was fairly good, as such most of the rifles were truly shot out by the time they were placed in the DP category. All of the DP rifles were destroyed, at least according to the Reservists (One of the questions to the archives). Also destroyed were the stocks of parts taken off of a limited number of DP rifles for service of existing issued rifles and some wood that was in new condition. As to these assertions, I have also asked the Military Archives to confirm this.

If you have any possible knowledge on Irish armour practices, please let me know. It was indicated to me that the Irish armourers trained in the UK pre WWII and copied English practices prior to the introduction of the metric FAL and Swedish M45 sub-machinegun, so perhaps you have some insights on the topic?

Regards

Frederick303

[Surpmil]

I've had two UF55 rifles with "Parker Hale Birmingham" stamped in the receiver ring. One was A2- and the other was A365--. Both had been well modified when I got them, so cannot say if they were complete or just actions when sold as surplus.

Another Mk2 with that stamp was posted about here I believe.

Which only shows that the rifles in question either never left the UK or returned there at some point, most likely.