Pre WW2 BAR web belt

[artu44]

Yep , three man team . Gunner had 4 pockets , 2-1911 pockets and the cup. 1st asst had 5 pockets and 2-1911 pockets ( no cup ) . 2nd asst had 4-pockets and 4 2-1903 stripper pockets ( no cup and no 1911 pockets ). The 1st asst also caried the 2 bandoleers. The gunner also carried the spare parts box in one pocket , so he had only 6-7 mags ( 120-140 rds) . 1st asst had 10 mags in his belt and 12 in his bandoleers for 22 mags or 440 rds. The 2nd caried 8 mags or 160 rds. This came to 720-740 rds , more if the 2nd caried any bandoleers . This soon changed , and I believe there are 2nd asst belts marked 1st asst as tactacts changed.
Chris

That's an old tale about 1st assistant. Actually 1st assistant belt doesn't exsist (nobody ever saw a belt marked this way) cause the man wore the gunner belt. 1st assistant was armed only with a M1911 and his "purpose" was to pick up the BAR in the case the gunner would have been killed or wound.

Information

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[RCS]

When I was an armorer many years ago, we still had the M1 rifle also had 12 BAR's all rebuilt from WW1 examples (Winchester, Marlin-Rockwell) to WW2 standards. These BAR's always worked without any problems. We had the stripper clip charger for the magazine but never had any cartridges on five round stripper clips, always had to use the eight round en bloc clips to load the BAR magazines by hand.

That M1918A1 bipod is quite rare and few,Attachment 25090 if any ( the Philippines ) ever had service in WW2

[artu44]

Yep , three man team . Gunner had 4 pockets , 2-1911 pockets and the cup. 1st asst had 5 pockets and 2-1911 pockets ( no cup ) . 2nd asst had 4-pockets and 4 2-1903 stripper pockets ( no cup and no 1911 pockets ). The 1st asst also caried the 2 bandoleers. The gunner also carried the spare parts box in one pocket , so he had only 6-7 mags ( 120-140 rds) . 1st asst had 10 mags in his belt and 12 in his bandoleers for 22 mags or 440 rds. The 2nd caried 8 mags or 160 rds. This came to 720-740 rds , more if the 2nd caried any bandoleers . This soon changed , and I believe there are 2nd asst belts marked 1st asst as tactacts changed.
Chris

It's not completely exact. The gunner had to use one of his pouch for the leather box containing spares and tools ( so only 6 mags available) and the 1st assistant wore a gunner belt plus two bandoleers (20 mags). His main gun was a M1911 ant he had to pick up the gun in the case gunner would have been killed or wounded. Indeed the 1st assistant belt doesn't exist and none ever saw one so marked. 2nd assistant armed with a rifle had his dedicated belt plus two bandoleers (20 mags). Total is 920 rounds per team.

---------- Post added at 02:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:55 AM ----------

No Artu the butt cup and mag pouch have been removed and replaced with standard pockets.......just overstamped by AVERY and dated 1942.....i assume AVERY carried out the modifications to the WW1 BAR belt

Regards

Lloyd

Yes Lloyd,
I can't remember why I wrote such bullshinola or what I wished to say.

[browningautorifle]

I had three BARs over time. In order they were Royal Typewriter, Marlin Rockwell and NESA. I had the mag charger like that one and they worked marvelously. They were of such a heavy material that I'm sure you could step on it and not bend it. At this point, this is the first anyone has mentioned one. I thought 5 round 1903 clips would have been common in WW2 but you NEVER see pics of them using the charger. Always loose into mags. I was raised on F.N.s so I know how that feels.

[emmagee1917]

Artu44 , I was going to call you on this one. Jim Ballou's book clearly shows one so identified on page 333 , fig 516. However , when I looked it up to get the page , I could see the two little holes under the 5th pouch which clearly shows it had had a cup which had been removed and the 5th pouch added , so you could well be right.
This reminds me of when I was just getting started in my WW2 / BAR collecting. I saw a film wherein three GIs walked past the camera . The 3rd GI was carring the BAR and he had a bandoleer of BAR mags over his shoulder. I saw the front and , as they walked past , the film taker followed them and I got a good view of the rear. I had never heard of it , and it was not two belts hooked together. When I asked where I could buy one of these bandoleers , all the collecters said it didn't exist. I said I had seen it , but they didn't believe me. About a year later , I saw the clip again , and was sure it was a bandoleer and had twelve single pockets on it and was too nice for a rigger made piece. That was 20 years ago , and all the old timers laughed at me. Two or three years ago , these bandoleers were "discovered" . The are paratrooper bandoleers for carring twelve smoke grenades on the D-day jump. There was a flurry of these that came out on auction right after they were ID'd. Never say never.
Chris

[artu44]

Never say never. I agree. As regards the so called 1st assistant belt, I've learned of its no-exsistance from the late Carter Rila, the grandad of all US militaria collector passed away a couiple of years ago. Indeed the habit to remove the unuseful cup (dont waste ammos shooting from the hip and dont expose yourself standing) can add confusion but markings don't lie. While all 2nd assistant are originally so marked, none ever saw a single belt marked 1st assistant.

[LimeyCarbineLover]

Paratrooper Bandoleers.........

Aru i have a modified Plant Bros WW1 belt .....modified by AVERY and dated 1942 on the web joining belt...with the butt cup and 45 mag pouch removed and 2 additional BAR mage pockets sewn on in their place.... and still retaining the WW1 dates....

i also know the whereabouts of a "rounded flap pocket" BAR belt ..made by S Froelich which is attributed to being USMC issue...

Regards

Lloyd

[artu44]

Well, usually rounded or pointed flap is a choice of maunfacturer and it doesn't mean nothing peculiar. It's very strange that Avery modification didn't include the replacement of the butt cup with a mag pouch. With the WWI belt you cannot touch your feet or pick up something from the ground cause the huge buckle will stab your stomach so the main WWII modification was to convert it to accept a buckle from an ordinary pistol belt. At the same time, being tactics changed, all were converted to 6 mag pouches. Never seen a WWI converted BAR belt maintaining the butt cup. It can be a Bubba job, a theater mod or a great rarity.
In the pic a tipical WWII era conversion of a WWI BAR belt.

[LimeyCarbineLover]

No Artu the butt cup and mag pouch have been removed and replaced with standard pockets.......just overstamped by AVERY and dated 1942.....i assume AVERY carried out the modifications to the WW1 BAR belt

Regards

Lloyd