Mystery Enfield??????????

[Peter Laidler]

There were several variations of the emergency Bren made so why not several variations of the emergency rifle - if it is indeed such a beast? As for utilising some of the parts of the standard rifle, then surely, that's the whole point! Even the emergency Bren used many standard parts.

From an engineering point, then it is clearly FAR simpler to make/fabricate. You machine a simple butt socket end with the locking lugs then you machine a relatively simplebreeching up threaded area then join the two together around a simplified mag housing. Ater all, that's how the real McCoy is made up, albeit in one piece. I wouldn't mind betting that the nose cap is a wrapped and folded fabrication too. In fact, I'm going to put my money on it - and £20 to any Forces charity if it turns out to be wrong

[jmoore]

In fact, I'm going to put my money on it - and £20 to any Forces charity if it turns out to be wrong

I'll call milled from the solid for 20...

ETA: Odd how the nosecap retains far more finish than the action body, but it could just be that it's a different steel. US WWI M1911s seem to fade at different rates, too, depending on the part.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

It's not just the different steel, it's the heat -treatment and post processing.

Good example: A few years ago I was involved in a project making parts that were differentially hardened, a bit like what happens to Lee Enfield cocking pieces. The part was coming out of heat-treatment and going to the coating bath which was somewhat similar to a blueing tank.

They would come out with a bizarre purple-crimson tint in places and a faint grey in others. The engineers were perplexed. I told them to go and give the parts a light blast with the finest grade glass beads in their blasters and get them in the tank a quickly as possible. I also told them to drop the start temperature of caustic brew in the the "oxide bath" 5 degrees and bring it up to “normal” when they saw a colour change in the part.

Oddly enough, it worked. The light bead-blasting micro-fractured the ceramic (oxide) skin left by the heat treatment. The mechanical action of the beads also activated the skin of the steel and the parts came out of the tank (Du Lite commercial process), an even, solid satin black.

I learned that trick from an old gunsmith who used to make a lot of odd replacement parts, although he would usually acid etch the parts before neutralizing and blueing. Using an acid should be done with care on stressed parts because hydrogen embrittlement can be an issue unless you bake them in an oven afterwards.

[breakeyp]

It was just a suggestion Paul but there are similarities don't you think?

Peter a few things bother me about this rifle. I am not saying it is a fake. I just wonder about the some if its features. If it is a WWII attempt at a cost reduced rifle, why include the volley sights and the shape of the nose cap does not appear to be cost reduced (considering weight and machine time for the various radiused surfaces). Barrel markings might be enlighteing.

Afganistan/Dara manufacture? That is a fascinating question. Someone with access could get them to make anything. Their appearance quality has greatly improved. I could see something like this being made up (or a group with "design" variations) and introduced into the collecting community. Certainly there is no way to prove what is correct or not.

I wish someone had a copy of the Navy Arms sales catalog that offered the Greener Factory Collection ---it might prove interesting.

[Peter Laidler]

That IS a fabricated nosecap. I'm not famiuliar with these Darra fakes except for the AK's that we have brought back and the quality of this work isn't the dire quality from Darra. That's just my opinion Paul and others. And I stand by my bet. That's £20 to any forces charity if it's not an emergency variation.

While I'm not a historian, there are certain things on this that are soooooooooo similar to the production emergency Brens and P'14's we have that..... Yep, I think my £20 will stay in my pocket.

However, so that a Forces charity doesn't miss out on my £20, anyone prepared to bet a similar amount the other way?

[Thunderbox]

If it has volley sights, then it must be pre-1916, otherwise who'd bother putting them on?


I guessing - just guessing - that this rifle has turned up in the north of England.....?

[jmoore]

the nose cap is a wrapped and folded fabrication too

That IS a fabricated nosecap. I'm not famiuliar with these Darra fakes except for the AK's that we have brought back and the quality of this work isn't the dire quality from Darra. That's just my opinion Paul and others. And I stand by my bet. That's £20 to any forces charity if it's not an emergency variation.

While I'm not a historian, there are certain things on this that are soooooooooo similar to the production emergency Brens and P'14's we have that..... Yep, I think my £20 will stay in my pocket.

However, so that a Forces charity doesn't miss out on my £20, anyone prepared to bet a similar amount the other way?

Fabricated from bent up heavy gage plate? I'm thinking not. Again, I'm in for US$20 or thereabouts. The front of the cap with the boss may be brazed on, though.

[Peter Laidler]

Surely, you can see the left and right side of the curvature JM....... My bet was referring to the rifle as a whole and not just the nose cap, but I'll open the wager up as win or loose, it's a good cause. As for the volley sight, could that just be a case of using the sight leaf as a spacer. It doesn't look as though a space has been recessed for it to fold down so it could be a case of 'standard parts' again.

Anyway, I've said my bit. Interesting thread

[Simon]

If it has volley sights, then it must be pre-1916, otherwise who'd bother putting them on?


I guessing - just guessing - that this rifle has turned up in the north of England.....?

Not quite sure where it is, he didn't offer the information when he sent me the pics so I didn't bother asking to be honest .

This is turning into a very interesting thread though.

Cheers,

Simon.

[Frederick303]

yes, by all means keep it up, here is a small part of Enfield history I have never heard of.

Perhaps someone can post pictures of emergency P14 and Bren guns for comparison?