A couple of questions re WWII & Korean War Aust snipers

[Ridolpho]

Nigel, Peter, Simon, et al. Thank's very much, gentlemen, for a fascinating discussion/ debate. You can't put a price on material like this!

Ridolpho

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[Bindi2]

No need for a steel helment i am in the midst of learning the MOA for a scope rifle combo from 300 yds zero stop to 900yds. In amongst this i think my ammo is going subsonic at or just before 900yds .
400yds = 7MOA , 500yds= 14MOA, 600yds = 23MOA, 700yds = 32MOA? still learning out here. The wind strength and direction can mean +/- .5 of MOA.
When i have finished this one i have a another to learn, L42 type using 308 Palma match ammo because surplus 7.62 is not an option or i build a load to fit the rifle and scope more fun.

[Peter Laidler]

I stil remember the clicker scales from sitting or laying on the ranges alongside them........ 3 double 4, double 4 6,7,8,9,11 and the L1A1 something like 2,3, double 3, double 4 6,7,8,9. I used to reel them off like an Army number. Made easier because my original number started 23--. Buit then, remembering that you HAVE to remember this, to start remembering another set............. BUT, not from 0 to 10, but 3 downwards and then, 3 upwards.......... Nope........... I used to have a strict policy of correcting myths at Warminster, especially those those that related to another of my favourites, the L85 SA80 rifle myths

[muffett.2008]

Bindii, if you are trying to calibrate for a 303, have fun, but this will help you with your 308 adjustments, it certainly works for me and most of the F class boys.
Bankstown Chatswood Rifle Club go to the ballistics page.

Glenn, I don't think we used anything other then MF rounds, the quality control and components were very good, even after 56 years a test of velocitys gave me these readings from MF56 ammo:
1. 2384 LO 2379
2. 2379 HI 2384
3. 2382 AV 2382
4. 2382 ES 5.62
5. 2383 SD 1.73 Now I have to say, if we could reload to that consistancy, we'd be laughing.
Just to back it up, different rifle, target barrel:
1. 2496 LO 2496
2. 2512 HI 2512
3. 2507 AV 2502
4. 2499 ES 16.59
5. 2496 SD O7.14
Will somebody get Ned out of bed, I'm missing him.

[Bindi2]

Thanks Muff you are a legend.
2208 is very good in the 303 i find and if you believe certain data with much lower pressure than cordite or higher velocity for the same pressure. The problem is finding Mk7 projectiles.

[paulseamus]

Muffet

Not a lot of variation in those velocities. Surely those low differences would only make a very minor difference on target.

Ned has been sent a wake up text. He is experiencing some pc issues, which might be keeping him offline for a bit.

Paul

[muffett.2008]

That ammo and some earlier stuff is still bringing in possibles at most of the ranges with my old trusty.
Not so good on the new target dimensions though, but even my target rifle is battleing to keep me straight there.
If things get much worse you will see me on the dark side with a big scope.

[Peter Laidler]

First Simon, you're not disrespectful at all and nor do I mind or object to any comment that you make. This is a forum that thrives on this stuff.

As I said, I have my steel helmet firmly in place and can take any incoming flak. I don't doubt anything that you're saying at all. In fact I know Harry myself and spent many hours with him and his German wife (with whom I spent a few hours practicing my schoolboy German), here, at this very house in the 80's, before he even became known in ex sniper circles. In fact I even had his deact No4T and scope rebuilt to an extremely high standard at our main Base Workshop. He never mentioned Mk8Z ammo to me.

What I am saying and maybe you might comment on the fact if you are bent on believing him, is that just how do you do shoot 8z from a rifle and telescope, matched together and calibrated to the trajectory of a bullet with totally different characteristics and expect to hit the target with the accuracy expected of '.....the most successful sniper in WW2' (or even a non sniper.....). If that WERE even remotely possible, I'd venture to suggest that they could have left the L1A1 telescope in .303"/Yards - and expect to hit a target! I'd also be asking myself this........ ready..... Pray tell me, what on earth will Mk8z do that Mk7 won't do from a rifle. What sort of longer range will a sniper expect when he's already got a matched rifle and calibrated 'scope that WILL hit the triple figure-11 at 1,000 yards (I know, because I've done it). And if you really do want a bullet that will stretch out longer, then......... well don't bother because the telescope won't go any further

Nope............. I stand by what I've said and do appreciate what you have said/repeated in good faith. But as I have said several times, sometimes, just sometimes............, like the Sten and Bren or even Mini Cooper 'facts' that we know are heresay or worse, some of this stuff unfolds in the telling I'm afraid to say. Sometimes, you have to be cruel, in a kind and diplomatic way and say these things to the purveyors of this stuff

The only unanswered question for anyone that believes this, er..........., 'possibly erronious stuff....' is just how would they do it? That's all I ask. Maybe there's a mathematical formula

As a little aside, I did something similar several years ago at our ITDU range over a few days and re-calibrated a S&B 6 x42 calibrated to 7.62mm NATO ball to 5.56 NATO ball. I can tell you this. Even with the RG trajectory charts, a slave rifle of each calibre, plenty of ammo and a day on the test range with an Enfield rest and spotting scopes so as to eliminate all human error, it wasn't simple and took the whole day and into the next and I only needed to go up to 800m. (the project failed for other reasons........)

[Peter Laidler]

Thanks for that Ridolpho.
But back to reality. One PMer asks how a sniper using Mk8z ammunition with sight fixed/set to 300 yards, as described above say, would/could react to a nice big juicy target, like, say, a Brigadier getting out of his car at a crossroads or an impromptu OGroup meeting at the roadside 700 yards away. That'd be a fair question to ask, on the basis that any sniper would be able to engage a man at that range. Mind you, you'd be struggling with Mk8z in your magazine and sights zeroed for 8z and set for a body hit at 300/400. You'd be even worse off if you were using the No32 sight set at (anyone worked it out yet).

I have to say that on balance, I'm not quite convinced yet. But with enough persuasion, I could be............

Next, someone should ask about barrell leed life with 8z and the No2 leed gauge

[newcastle]

OK I"ll bite - but actually because I'm relatively new and want to learn from experts more than anything else. This is on the zeroing front though. As is understand it the Mk8 is more powerful and therefore has a flatter trajectory that the Mk7 ammo correct? Sooo therefore the bullet drop would be sightly less over say the first 300 /400 yards but should exhibit a similar drop to mk7 after this point. What is wrong with a sniper simply zeroing in at 300 yards with Mk8 knowing that a flatter trajectory to that point will get him a hit at 100 and 200, and then also noting that at 700 for instance he needs to be at the 650 mark on the scope and keeping notes along those lines? it seems simple to me but i"m over simplfying i think .