Parker hale m85

[chosenman]

Hi Gil,
Yep I have heard from several sources that the MOD decision rested on the engineering and design features of both finalist rifles. The M85's conventional build was essentially its downfall as it required the full back up of REME armourers to keep it front line, just the same as the L42. It would appear AI listened to the brief and built something innovative and more importantly required very little skilled attention. Virtually all parts that hung off the chassis could be attended to by the rifleman, barrel change, trigger unit, battle sights, side panels could all be removed, reattached and swapped mostly with three allen keys and only a 1 MOA depreciation over 10,000 rounds was guaranteed.

I think the MOD made the right call. They selected a weapon that was innovative, completely British and it delivered exactly what it said on the tin, furthermore its ascendants still do!

Information

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[Peter Laidler]

The Lt Colonel running the trial will readily confirm that the P-H was more accurate in every respect and at all stages of the trial - but only marginally so! It was the easibility of maintenance that won the day for the A! but it did have major design/metallurgy flaws that we're all now familiar with. Mind you there were steel quality/consistency issues with the P-H bodies that were apparent even on the little L81's
L96 arrels could only be changed with special tooling at big Base workshops incidentally and internal collars caterered for CHS adjustment - which was VERY tight. I'm not sure that the average crunchie was allowed to upset the trigger mech - god, you'd never know what you were going to get! It was bad enough when they removed the side plates to 'clean' the rifle. You could almost guarantee that one side or the other would catch on the frame or one of the long screws would hold and the side plate would snap.
Another good competitor was the Armalon variant of a US rifle but we/politics dictated/wanted UK or EU made. There was a straight pull 'thing' that simply wouldn't tolerate dust.

All in all, the L96 was a worthy winner

[Gil Boyd]

Peter,
Thanks for that. I wrote an article about this whole project but never published it on any site, so if the head shed here think it appropriate I could send it to an administrator or you to read first.
I interviewed Bill Smallwood of Parker Hale who was my inspiration (now retired), a man who spent countless years on the project only to see it disappear beneath him.
I think Malcolm Coopers Gold medals helped as well at the Olympics politically!!!

[Peter Laidler]

It was really all about maintainability really. And they'd learned a hard lesson with the Cadet GP P-H. It was pretty well agreed AFTER it'd been accepted that they'd have been better off if they'd been given L39's of which there were always zillions in store. I think that the bodies were imported from Spain (or Portugal) and even then, they were left over from another project! One of the Armourers on the sniper project told Mike XXXXX that he was really dealing with an updated P'14 sniper. I wasn't anything at all to do with this except for heresay afterwards but I did have access/read the trials reports when I got my L96

I see the point about the gold medal connection but I'm not sure that that'd wash with the trials team and or Lt Col Mike xxxxxx who was running the trial. Maybe if you are writing this episode up, you ought to speak to him as well. I'll see what he says..........

[jmoore]

There are a few other gripes I have about the rifle from a user's standpoint.

Firstly, I've found it all too easy to look under the rear sight when being less than deliberate.:





What the user should see when throwing the rifle up for a quick close in shot...

Easily sorted, but it takes time, and that might not end well in the field.

Second, the push button QD swivel that came with the rifle decided to QD itself whilst slung against my back after a long day hiking about. The muzzle protector did it's job but was completely full of dirt! This style swivel is now very common, but they must be considered disposable items as wear is what did mine in. Not obvious until it's too late!

I think it was mentioned earlier- the magazine release is rather too easily operated. A stouter spring, or, even better, a folding latch like the SVT40's or AG42b's would be nice.



From a academic standpoint, it seems the bolt stop/release design is a step backwards from the original Mauser design. Less stout and also easily detatched (then lost in the field, etc., as noted by Peter Laidler) there's just not much good about it except reduced cost. But you'd think PH could have cast the bolt release housing in place, so the savings argument likely wouldn't hold water. Bit of a mystery, really.



The scope ring/bracket attachment design I generally like! Less chance for canted attachments than is common with the 1913 rail. (Which is the fault of the attachment designs, not the 1913 rail itself...) But the recoil shoulder on the M85 is small and tends to pound a divot on the one piece bracket. Two piece ring mounts seem to fare better, though.

Receiver rigidity and barrel attachment are super!

Trigger is an improvement over some earlier PH offerings.

Stock is a little bulky, but comfortable. The bipod attachment is nice.

Front sight design works well if you're not a ham fisted lout.

[Gil Boyd]

Yes I see the dilemma you have if a snap shot is needed on iron sights, however, the 6X42 S&B sight was to be standard issue had the weapon been approved.

This is a Paragraph from my research which answers some questions in terms of Spain and the work carried out on the rifle:

Parker Hales Head Gunsmith Eddie Taff during 1982, who was formerly an RAF Armourer, set about designing the M85 with his small workforce. Eddie spent many hours designing the action for the rifle under immense pressure, to replace the L42A1 for the Army on time, so that comparison trials could be held, following the Falklands War.

I don’t wish to make it sound that the whole project was rushed, but the work that must have taken place in such a short time, was an outstanding achievement under Graham Green’s leadership as the Factory Foreman at the time. Bill Smallwood who worked for Parker Hale from 1980 until 2000 on the M85, recalls the remarkable work carried out by a few there, in bringing this new rifle ahead of schedule for the allotted trials date by the Ministry of Defence.

Investment into modifications and production of the M85 sniper rifle action, were often wrongly aligned to the Mauser 98 action by many, but this Parker Hale variant was produced to a higher specification and resilience, especially to the bolt assembly, working parts and the floating barrel.

So it was a myth, that the Mauser action was never used in the rising from the ashes of the M85 it was in fact a Santa Barba bolt designed in Spain. However, the Mauser it has to be said, showed the way to many designers in history of firearms manufacture, and remain a world beater, and no wonder it continued to be used in this rifle. Changes were however made to the bolt in Spain which really confused many into thinking a Mauser action was never used.
Gil

[jmoore]

Changes were however made to the bolt in Spain which really confused many into thinking a Mauser action was never used.

It is a Mauser clone, yes? I've called it an "ultra-Mauser" in concept. The "Santa Barba" bolt is different mostly in being shorter IIRC. Bolt shroud has no safety, etc... The feature that some might find most important which was omitted seems to be the receiver's inner collar surrounding the front end of the bolt. Not a huge issue unless there's a catastrophic case head failure, in which case the escaping gasses have much more room to flow.

[Gil Boyd]

Mine is in a drab green McMillan stock with all original parts including S&B 6X42 scope, a real find and shoots brilliantly from all ranges.
I gain so much pleasure from the rifle, with my old Police issue Enforcer in a close second place.
I marvel at the simplicity of both actions, as they continue to do exactly what they say on the box, 30 years + on

[Gil Boyd]

[Peter Laidler]

One of the blokes involved in this was another ex Reme Armourer, Paul Whitehead whom I know