Is a Grenade launcher a Section 1 Firearm Component ?

[Alan de Enfield]

The problem we are facing is that of 'Creep' it used to be that the only items that required a Firearm Certificate were those that carried a Proof Mark as pressure bearing items. As a Customs Officer I could not legally seize any other 'Parts' being imported without an Import Licence or in the case of a personal import a valid FAC. However parts might be detained until we could be satisfied that they were not being used for 'Naughty' purposes. However a raft of import and export controls have crept in very often as 'regulations' that have never been near Parliament and this has also crept into the Police view of a number of things. All this of course stems from the 'War on Terror' being used to 'Justify' a lot of very silly restrictions. As Thunderbox says the risk of getting 5 years for being the 'Test Case' is rather high. This is why 'Test Cases' should be just that and should have NO Penalty when they are just being used to clarify the law.

At a tangent (but interesting - to me anyway) how do you determine what an item "is", is evey parcel subject to x-ray, do you rely on the customs declaration ie "metal cup", how do you decide what is a 'suspect item' ?

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Peter Laidler]

I don't think Robert will answer that Q. AdeE on the basis that a lot of their knowledge is intelligence based. Additionally, we used to regularly deal with HMC&E and you'd be suprised at the depth of knowledge that certain members had or had access to............

The sad part about this thread is the fact that we are actually discussing whether this sort of innoxious stuff REALLY is a cause for concern. Reading back I notice mention of 'stabilised in flight' in relation to items that are 'projected' A No36 grenade in flight certainly isn't stabilised in flight. IN fact it's about as aerodynamic as a piano whereas an energa certainly is stabiliased. The rule of thumb will be whether the object is capable of being accurately sighted and placed. Just a thought........

[Robert303]

As Peter says I will not discuss 'Operational Matters'. Peter thanks for the praise re certain Customs Officers. I was lucky enough to know a few of them and they and the staff at Shrivenham taught me a LOT. I learnt more from them than I did from the 'Shooting Community'' especially the various Club 'Experts' I've come across in 30 years of shooting.

[boristhepig]

Hi
So is there or isn't there a definitive answer to the legal status of the cup launcher or does it come down to being a matter for the courts to decide?

Thanks Terry

[Alan de Enfield]

Well - I have got my SMLE "Cup" for the type 23 grenade - beats me that anyone could make a firearm component out of it.







Now to work out if the No1 Mk1 2 1/2" Cup is allowed

[Peter Laidler]

Alan illustrates JUST what I said earlier - and more....... All a cup discharger REALLY is, put simply, is no more that a 'striker lever holder in thinggy'. Which is exactly what the pressed steel thinggy in thread 15 is. And here's the thing. If you were to be questioned about possessing a cup discharger you just remain silent and commeth the day, your solicitor and expert witness illustrate the stupidity of the case by producing the totally innoxious pressed steel 'thinggy' and explain that they do exactly the same thing.

A bit like driving to Carlisle. You can do it in a Triumph TR6 or a clcpped out Mini. They'll both get you there but one looks better than the other. As my sister occasionally tells me. The judiciary don't like you making a laughing stock out of the law. But if you do it while making a laughing stock of the 'other side' - to your benefit, then that's OK!

[boristhepig]

Hi
This thread was originally first posted in January 2015 since then an updated Guide on Firearms Licensing Law was published in March 2015, I have just been looking through it, and I don’t know if clause xii) was included in the 2014 guide? But it would seem to me that this clause would now make the 2.5in discharger cup a section 5 item?

vi) any rocket launcher, or any mortar, for projecting a stabilised missile, other than a launcher or mortar designed for line-throwing or pyrotechnic purposes or as signaling apparatus (section 5(1)(ae));
ix) any cartridge with a bullet designed to explode on or immediately before impact, any ammunition containing or designed or adapted to contain any such noxious thing as is mentioned in (viii) above and, if capable of being used with a firearm of any description, any grenade, bomb or other like missile, or rocket or shell designed to explode as aforesaid (section 5(1)(c));
xi) any rocket or ammunition not falling within (ix) above which consists of, or incorporates, a missile designed to explode on or immediately before impact and is for military use (section 5(1A)(b));
xii) any launcher or other projecting apparatus not falling within (vi) above which is designed to be used with any rocket or ammunition falling within (xi) above or with ammunition which would fall within that paragraph but for it being ammunition falling within (ix) above (section 5(1A)(c));

[Alan de Enfield]

[QUOTE=boristhepig;342247]Hi
This thread was originally first posted in January 2015 since then an updated Guide on Firearms Licensing Law was published in March 2015, I have just been looking through it, and I don’t know if clause xii) was included in the 2014 guide? But it would seem to me that this clause would now make the 2.5in discharger cup a section 5 item?

vi) any rocket launcher, or any mortar, for projecting a stabilised missile, QUOTE]

My counter to that would be :

a) A grenade is not a "stabilised missile"
b) The 'bit of bent metal' is not a 'launcher' & is not launching anything - the rifle (via a blank cartridge) is doing the launching.

[mrclark303]

If this is the case, they have finally gone the the whole way and gone completely nuts ... you can make a prohibited Sec5 component part with a bit of sheet metal, bent to fit a No36 grenade and gaffer taped to an SMLE!

Seriously though, if they make a WW1 era discharger cup a prohibited weapon the world really has gone bloody mad!

[Peter Laidler]

Fortunately a hand grenade, projected by the cup discharger doesn't explode ON or immediately BEFORE impact. It explodes AFTER impact.

Annanuvverfing. Please don't confuse a PROOFED part with a pressure bearing part. They are not the same thing. If it were, you would have to proof your butt!