No5 Jungle Carbine

[jeffreyasmith]

Well mine isn't Finished properly
So i learned today
and No Bolt

Information

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[browningautorifle]

Interesting, the pistol grip is completely gone. Never seen one of those.

[Seaspriter]

Interesting, the pistol grip is completely gone. Never seen one of those.

Jim, you are VERY observant. I bought the gun and have examined the missing pistol grip with a large magnifying glass (playing Sherlock Holmes). Here's what I surmise:

1) The gun definitely went through an Arsenal Repair -- small chip repaired in the butt just behind the receiver ring, new Suncorite, new rubber butt (that sounds obscene!), and cleaned up finish.
2) The stock is definitely 100% authentic -- took the butt plate off, and the interior is exactly like a No. 5 should be (not a converted No. 4)
3) The missing grip may have had been chipped, then the Armourer carefully shaved/planed off the entire grip.
Or an alternate theory: The gun was used by a Sergeant Major who had really big hands and his hand was too big for the gun's wrist.

Experts chime in if you have another idea --see Lee Enfield No. 5 Mk 1 Jungle Carbine #5 : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com


Robert

[browningautorifle]

You scared me Jim

Sorry...

The missing grip may have had been chipped

Or whatever, yes a rasp would remove it and then some judicious sanding... I'm sure Peter will give us an example very shortly. Appears to be a nice clean job. After all, a #5 butt IS different than a #4 and not just a bit.

[jeffreyasmith]

You scared me Jim
i thought you meant mine and not the one on GB

[Peter Laidler]

Your poor rifle has had the woodwork thrashed with a sander to within an inch of its poor life and is beyond any sort of help by a total amateur with a belt sander. That's only my opinion Jeff as one who had fixed and range tested a few - thousand!

Just a small point, the Technical instructions and Amended parts list shows that from the early 50's, ALL No4 similar parts supposedly 'special*' to the No5 rifle, such as the sear, bolt, backsight screw and nut - and probably a few other odds and sods - were obsolescent. And annoted alongsine is 'WSE, see OPL5593'. In short, this is the standard No4 parts list. Thereafter the No4 parts became the norm/standard. However, it was clear that what'd really happened was that parts supply had been standardised.

So in the real world of an Armourers shop - as opposed to the fairy-tale world of collectors and concours fiends, in the main workshops a standar No4 bolt or, say, sear would be used in the normal way.

Just as a matter of interest, if your No5 has a thin steel plate between the butt pad and the butt, then get rid of it if it hasn't already rusted out/ These steel plates were a pain in the ar....., bottom, as being totally enclosed, they'd start to rust out and the wet steel corrosion would run downwards into the butt plate cup and destroy the long two-part retaining screw/nut OR if the rifles were kept muzzle down - as many were. just run into the stock bolt and set about that too. A real menace!

Incidentally, anyone out there got butt plate cup(s) with small 'U' shaped recesses cut into the top, bottom, l and r sides around the bottom edges? That was one of our modifications to let the festering water out of the butt. How did the water get in trhere? It's called the monsoon. Lasted from the beginning of September until midway through the following August. Or so it seemed!

Nice rifles but really not as manageable and tough as No4's

* some of these so called 'special' parts weren't really special at all but just natural progression - like waisted trigger guards that became the norm eventually

[Seaspriter]

if your No5 has a thin steel plate between the butt pad and the butt, then get rid of it if it hasn't already rusted out/ These steel plates were a pain in the ar....., bottom, as being totally enclosed, they'd start to rust out and the wet steel corrosion would run downwards into the butt plate cup and destroy the long two-part retaining screw/nut

Capt. Laidler: Thanks for your advice on this. (.....this water-collection cup problem is also inherent in my M-1 carbine.) Last week you also warned:
As someone who's learned 'in theatre' the importance of grease between the wood and steel and the effects of not having it does, I look on eyes agog when people spend ages getting rid of it. It's there for a good reason. Not just a GOOD reason but a xxxxxxg good reason I say!"

The Enfield Armour's Manual from 1931 called for a mixture of "mineral jelly and beeswax" to be applied to the wood/metal interface.

I think the reason why is explained here (from the M-1 Garand/Carbine Civilian Marksmanship website -- Wood Cleaning Article | Civilian Marksmanship Program):

"The almost black color along the metalwood lines of firearms would indicate....... over time, gun oil dissolves the resins in wood and makes it mushy. For example, the compression effect of Garand receivers/trigger guards crushing the wood is in part caused by oil damage to the wood." To this I will add that iron, when it rusts, leaves ugly black marks on wood.

I checked British versus American English definitions of "mineral jelly:"
Noun 1. mineral jelly - a semisolid mixture of hydrocarbons obtained from petroleum; used in medicinal ointments and for lubrication petrolatum, petroleum jelly; Vaseline - a trademarked brand of petroleum jelly.

Based on the Enfield & Garand instructions, I bought a block of beeswax at Michael's (in the candle making section). Pure beeswax at room temperature is very hard and solid, like candle wax.

Melted 50/50 Beeswax with Vaseline (petroleum jelly) in an old shoe polish can. Put a small piece of red candle in the mix to give it a slightly reddish color so it is bit more visible. Once cooled, it is the consistency of stiff shoe polish, somewhat like putty -- pliable but not gooey. (I'm definitely not sure, but this may be the predecessor of the mysterious XG 297 grease). This beeswax/mineral jelly combination repels both water and oil while preserving the wood.

Then I took apart a newly acquired No.1 MkIII Lithgow Enfield and cleaned every area where metal came in contact with wood, especially where gun oil was deteriorating the wood, as Capt. Laidler recommended. After scraping out as much gunk as possible with a screwdriver blade -- there was a lot of crud, grease, oil, dirt, grit, etc. -- I used turpentine with a brush to clean out the remainder of the gunk on the forend; especially in the area under the receiver and around the magazine. Dried it all out and applied the beeswax/mineral jelly mix it to every wood area that had been exposed to gun oil and wherever wood/metal contact. Used the flat side of a screwdriver like a spatula to get in small areas.

I'm taking apart all my guns and applying the mineral jelly/beeswax concoction to every metal/wood interface. I'm confident this will solve the vexing problem of steel screws in butt plates and sling swivels mounts that have rusted in place over the years and are extremely hard to remove without buggering the heads.

Always looking for more good advice .... always learning, Robert

[RossM10]

(I'm definitely not sure, but this may be the predecessor of the mysterious XG 297 grease). This beeswax/mineral jelly combination repels both water and oil while preserving the wood.

XG-297 is mysterious as there is no record that this code was ever used.
XG-279 however has been mentioned before but there's nothing mysterious about it, it's plain regular automotive grease.
The relevant Defence Standard defines it as:
General purpose lubricant for automotive and artillery applications,
operated over the temperature range of minus 54°C to plus 105°C.

It is based on mineral oil with a metallic soap thickener. XG-279 is a UK designation, the Nato equivalent code for it is G-403.

[Seaspriter]

operated over the temperature range of minus 54°C to plus 105°C.

Thanks for the correction, clarification and translation into Nato Code. This operating temperature range runs from severe arctic conditions (Like Alaska, North West Territories, Finland) to above boiling.

[Surpmil]

May have a long butt, or may just be the photo. They did make them, I have one. Woodwork is heavily worn, probably sanded by someone who didn't know what they were doing: gaps between handguard and stock.

No5 was issued to some airborne formations towards the end of WWII, and probably afterwards for a time, so an artilleryman on attachment to such a formation might have been issued such a piece, but HIGHLY unlikely that he would have been able to make off with it, or that it would be in that condition, unless he carried it in the woods for years, literally.