What makes an L1A4 an A4?

[tankhunter]

Mike, all seen & understood.

Ill boil it down even further..............If you look at a unmolested KNOWN direct from the factory L1A3 with the grips so marked. it WILL have a waisted crossguard. IE: L1A3
And then look at an unmolested KNOWN direct from the factory, marked on the grips L1A4. You will notice it WILL have a parallel crossguard. IE: L1A4
That is EXACTLY how they left their respective Factories (Unless Modified from an earlier mark to A3 Spec)

I cannot differentiate any clearer or indeed easier between the These TWO variants!

Im leaving now, before I hang myself in the Toilets!........

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Peter Laidler]

After a chat with Tankie, Roger Sxxxx and another, it seems as though there is no disagreement about this except in some, amost academic minor detail. So this is the ACTUAL state of play, according to the EMER Gospel and the Trials microfische albeit a bit scratchy now and difficult to read!

Here goes, something agreed. Some of it is at the start of the thread so sorry about the cut-and-paste duplication and other bits have been clarified
In short, and I don’t think that there’s any dispute here that:

L1A1 bayonet was the original bayonet made at Enfield to the original sealed drawings upon which, because the fixture (the F/E) and bayonet were our own design, no e3xpensive royalties were due and no design change agreement was required
L1A2 bayonet was the bayonet that sub contractors such as BSA(?), and others later, could produce under licence given certain conditions (the bleedin obvious, such as fully interchangeable parts, material, strength and fitting of course). This was in order that the specialist manufacturers or sub contractors could make the best use of the existing facilities available to them. After all, some of them were already making a similar, tried and trusted blade for the No5 bayonet! So why not? The change in designation was a paperwork exercise to take account of the variables that might be encountered. Nothing more or less. That's why some collectors just fall into 'the long fuller' trap
L1A3 bayonet was an L1A1 with a modified/recessed pommel. No need to elaborate here and all this is recorded EMER fact.

The reason why some, but by no means all, were marked L1A3 at the end of the pommell is as unclear as it is mysterious! That’s because as a rule, when/if a bit of kit is modified, if the modification is there for all to see, like a deep recess caused by a 5/8” dia bull nose cutter, there’s no point whatsoever in indicating that it’s been done! For example…. When the L1A1 rifle was modified inside the rear of the TMH, the modification was hidden underneath deep beneath the butt. So a small mark was lightly stamped on the outside so Armourers could tell without stripping the weapon that it had been modified and all was well. You see the point…….? Another point is that to be honest, you don’t see many marked do you?

I’m just surmising here now BUT when this L1A1 to L1A2 modification was initiated in the early 60’s, there were very probably none or very few commercially produced sub-contract L1A2 bayonets in the system so the notion that there was a need to mark any modified L1A2 bayonets with an L1A4 marker was irrelevant. And realistically, what earthly difference would it make to anyone on the planet – EXCEPT nerdy collectors 50 years on?

As a change of nomenclature had already been implemented for the L1 to become the A3, so the L2 MUST become the L4. That stands to reason doesn't it? And so it was, the Mk/type marker advances. Once again, this is another EMER fact. Because that’s the way we do it and the way the system works. Modified No4 Mk1 becomes a Mk1/2 and a Mk 1*(or 1/1) becomes a Mk 1/3……get it?

We get to the point now where due to what the blanket stacking community call ‘diminishing stocks’. Enfield have ceased bayonet production so orders were placed with the usual specialist sub contractors for a quantity of replacement bayonets. These will be to the later A2 modified/recessed pommel pattern. And as such, we arrive at the;
L1A4 bayonet. They roll off the production lines and as they are all manufactured to an AGREED specification, they are accepted into service after minimal quality assurance testing. Alas, in the late 70’s another sub contractor, wishing to make the best use of his manufacturing facilities wishes to make the X-piece in a one-hit, straight sided pressing(THE SCP) instead of the more expensive multi machined waisted type SPECIFIED. But in order that he can depart from the laid down spec, his proposed changes have to undergo a rigorous testing and trials programme. It is approved by the Trials Wing at Warminster and thereafter slowly accepted into service - STILL as the L1A4.


We arrive at the situation where by default and natural coincidence that the confusion seems to arise. Naturally, SCP only appears on the commercial sub-contractors bayonets because a) he’s making them anyway as standard issue contract L1A4’s and b) he’s just had a relaxation approved so that he can make a stronger and better crosspiece cheaper! And c) this slight change won’t advance the mark/type as it’s just an approved natural progression. BUT IT IS NOT THE SCP that defines an L1A4 bayonet. The SCP is simply a natural progression of the L1A4 in much the same way as wire wheels don’t advance the Mk/type of your 1970 MGB over a steel wheel model

As for the different pommels. It is suggested that these are castings although I say that they are just a simpler, cheaper and just as tough sintered steel pressings. But that’s another thing for another day…..

[Time Bandit]

Thanks Peter for taking the time to compose and type all this out, makes interesting reading and being the 'official' version 'it'll be reet' as opposed to some of the stuff that will be found elsewhere - much appreciated and hopefully it can provide a reference for future 'what's a A4 type questions'!

I've had a read, and if I'm picking it up right, I make it that it was only an outside contractor, like Hopkinson or whoever, that made or used the 'A4' designation and not Enfield, as A2 and A4 was for outside contractors use and Enfield would of used A3 (and originally A1)? Where would BSA fit into this with the B marked A3 (that's presuming the B is for BSA) or were BSA not regarded as an outside contractor?

Also, in theory then, Hopkinson or whoever, if they had so desired, could of made bayonets with either a waisted or straight crossguard and it wouldn't, as far as the official viewpoint was, of made any difference and they still would of just been an A4 regardless?

This might seem a bit simplistic but basically, apart from the release button, on the whole the rest of the spec (short fuller, long fuller, waisted crossguard, straight crossguard etc) didn't count as it didn't change the designation and the way to ID them would be...

If Enfield made it then it's either an L1A1 or an L1A3 depending on the release button, if an outside contractor made it then it's an L1A2 or an L1A4 depending on the release button? The bit I'm not sure of is the L1A3 marked BSA? (B) ones?

Have I picked this up right or am I barking up the wrong tree??

[Peter Laidler]

I can only suggest that if you have a BSA or B marked L1A1 or 3, then as BSA were original contractors for the rifles then they'd have been original contractors for the bayonets too and they'd have supplied L1A1 bayonets that were converted later to L1A3's

But not, nor ever having been a collector, my don't-give-a-shitometer batteries are running down!

However...... It's well known that during the last days of these contractors, they did produce many hybrids..... and sold them off to the public. Such as No5(?) bayonets based on L1A2 blades so anything is possible given the variables

[tankhunter]

And as Peter & I will attest. The important thing as far as we were concerned. were the parts for ALL variant interchangeable? =YES.
Great, then we can repair the Bayonet, so it can be ready to be put back in the armoury. waiting for the day it would be issued out to a particular 'User'. So he could go and kill his Sandbag Or 'Approaching Enemy'!............

AND AT THE END OF THE DAY. THAT, WAS WHAT IT WAS ALL ABOUT FOR US!....At that moment in our lives. serving Queen & country. & sweating at the thought of Ivan coming over the hill in his flip flops. With a Kalashnikov
in one hand. & a Half Eaten Baby in the other. We could keep the key Equipment of th Unit we were attached to, at any given time. On the road & ready to be issued to our Young Lions. To defend the Homeland & keep us safe from
The Evil Hoards. Who coverted our Glorious Nations 'Wealth' & Free Land. And the friendliness of Hearty Good Fellows who hailed from that Great Land!.............................................

NEVER in a Zillon years, did We for one moment. Think that we would be Identifying things down to the last rivet. For Collectors of Military Memrobilia, many years later in our lives!

[Peter Laidler]

Talking of rivets Tankie and Skippy....., and probably Son over there in Sunny Oz....... Do you remember the bayonet grip rivets called RIVETS, tubular, aircraft but we called them RIVETS, tubular awful! You could NEVER get both correctly flared over while renewing the grip plates. They'd buckle or go lop-sided or anything but a nice flare inside the recess.

The special tool was a work of art but I used to blame that....... Best thing was........ Anyway, if you see a really bad set of rivets, they'd be mine! Good to smile now of course.

Two of my 'just as a matter of interest' moments here: The person who was responsible for the L- numbering system for Small-Arms and related equipment from the mid 80's until about 4 years ago was Lt.Col, now well retired, Chris Hood from the small arms school while he was based 'somewhere'.

John Sparrow one of the real old experienced Armourers taught me that when re-rivetting the grips with the Rivets Tubular Awful, to give the open end of the rivet a good whack with a centre punch to START the flare and then use the special dopey tool to just roll it over. It'll still split of course but it'll be tight and sort-of even!

[tankhunter]

Pete, Yes I too. could NEVER get perfect 'roll-Over' with those Bloody rivets! LOL. I still have some in my Bayonet Spares box
We got around it all in the end, VERY Simply! We just used a Pop Riveter Tool! Easy as Pea's!............Job Done in SECONDS. Rather than swearing & bashing away with the old Birmingham screwdriver! (Hammer!)....

[skiprat]

I've just seen an A4 offers for sale..... Complete with A4 marked grips and "pop rivets" not too bad condition, but the vendor wanted more for it than a very expensive No7 bayonet.....("Cos its a very very rare ...made while they were making the SA80")
. I don't want to say how much ... But it was the most expensive British bayonet I have ever seen for sale ... And I have seen an Em2 and SA80 prototype (with bottle opener)

[Time Bandit]

I've just seen an A4 offers for sale..... Complete with A4 marked grips and "pop rivets" not too bad condition, but the vendor wanted more for it than a very expensive No7 bayonet.....("Cos its a very very rare ...made while they were making the SA80")
. I don't want to say how much ... But it was the most expensive British bayonet I have ever seen for sale ... And I have seen an Em2 and SA80 prototype (with bottle opener)

Hmmm....I think I might of just seen that on a dealers website, if it's the same one then the dealer in question always has prices that defy all logic, I can't believe he actually sells anything, he had some A3s too (might still have) and they were nearly as expensive!

My last A4 cost me £60 a few weeks back from a dealer, my last A3 was £35 in the local auction in mint, refurb'd condition.

[nzl1a1collector]

Ok, here we go again............

First some background, what is now known as the L1 series of bayonets is based on the Canadian C1 designed bayonet AND Flash Eliminator, they are a 'set'. The British design lost out the Canadian version, although I haven't seen one I believe the British option of bayonet was a modified No. 5 with a smaller cross-piece like the No. 8 bayonet. They may have even used No. 8 bayonets for trials, they did of course have 2000 of them in storage somewhere.

Over time there have been many discussions about what the differences are between the various models of L1 bayonets. Some say its ‘rivets’, ‘brazing’, ‘waisted’, ‘straight’ and, ‘fullers’. The difference between the original two models of bayonets, L1A1 and L1A2 were:

L1A1 Bayonet (1957 – 1958)
Manufactured by Enfield and BSA
Single cut blade edge
Protruding bayonet catch
Grips marked 960-0011


L1A2 Bayonet
Manufactured by no one in the UK, but made by Lithgow in Australia.
Double cut blade, the first cut at 40° the second cut to create the cutting edge at an angle of 55° to 65°
Protruding bayonet catch

All the examples I have examined of the above type bayonets have 2 rivets securing the pommels, that’s how they were made.


According to official documentation the L1A1 bayonet was to be modified because “the protruding catch was liable to be operated accidentally causing disengagement of the bayonet”. I think if that was the case, why this wasn’t discovered sooner with the likes of the SMLE, No. 5, Sterling etc as their bayonet catches protrude the same amount?, but I digress.

The new models of bayonet the L1A3 and L1A4 were introduced, the only difference between them and the L1A1 / L1A2 bayonets were the introduction of the milled out pocket and shorter bayonet catches, to correct the perceived problem stated above.

L1A3 Bayonet (1959 – 1965)
Manufactured by Enfield, Fazakerley and BSA
Modified version of the L1A1 type bayonet
Milled pocket with short bayonet catch
Single cut blade edge
Grips marked 960-0257


L1A3 Bayonet, Modified from the L1A1 model
Once the new design L1A3 bayonet came into service the original L1A1 bayonets were modified to the new standard of L1A3 with the pocket milled into the pommel and the new bayonet catch fitted. The original grips that were marked 960 0011 were modified by barring out the number and in most cases one of the grips was replaced with a now L1A3 marked grip which had the stores number 960-0257. Most of these bayonets encountered should have the 0257 L1A3 stamped into the end of the pommel. There is conjecture as to the point of stamping the markings onto the end of the pommel.


L1A3 Bayonet, Short Fuller (1966 – 1970)
Manufactured by Enfield
Modified version of the L1A1 type bayonet
Milled pocket with short bayonet catch
Single cut blade edge
Grips marked 960-0257
Short Fuller, reported to be done due to issues with a weakness of the tang and the full length fuller.

After a lot of consideration, I wonder if in fact these bayonets were actually made this way because it reduced machining operations making it more economical to produce?


L1A4 Bayonet 1973 – 1986)
Manufactured by Hopkinson and AM (unknown who this maker is)
Modified version of the L1A2 type bayonet
Double cut blade, the first cut at 40° the second cut to create the cutting edge at an angle of 55° to 65°
Milled pocket with short bayonet catch
Grips marked 960-0259 or 960-2359

The first dated examples seen of these L1A4 Bayonet is 1973, the bayonets have a waisted cross-piece, latter ones had the straight cross-piece. All examples examined were made by Hopkinson except for the very rare last production AM86 bayonets.


Things to consider when looking at a L1 series bayonet.

DO NOT just go by just the markings on the grips. Grips were replaced in service and there are even ‘L1A3’ Australian L1A2 Bayonets if you go by the grip markings. In fact there are some L1A1 bayonets too.

960-0011 Stores number for the Complete L1A1 Bayonet Assembly
960-0257 Stores number for the Complete L1A3 Bayonet Assembly
960-0259 Stores number for the Complete L1A4 Bayonet Assembly
960-2359 Stores number for the Bayonet Grips (the only grips marked with this part number have been produced by Hopkinson)

DO NOT just go by the waisted or straight cross-piece. There is a crossover of the use of these components, they were both used on L1A3 and L1A4 bayonets, they are alternative component for manufacturing depending on who was making the bayonets.

DO Check the markings on the blade, this will tell you who made the original bayonet and when.

D = Enfield
B = BSA
F = Fazakerley
H-in-diamond Hopkinson
AM = Unknown

Cast Parts
Investment cast parts started as early as 1962, maybe even earlier, but the earliest I’ve seen is 1962, these can be Pommels, Waisted Cross-pieces and Straight Cross-pieces. L1A3 and L1A4 bayonets can be found with a mixture of machined and cast components.