Lee Enfield vs P14

[Bruce_in_Oz]

The P-14, or, actually, its predecessor, the P-13, came into being because a bunch of “learned gentlemen” deemed the SMLE and its cartridge “inadequate” for serious long-range work. Bear in mind that, at the time, the old slow, Mk6 was the “ammo du jour”. Some of these characters were probably responsible for ditching the P-88 inspired P-03 bayonet and going for the Arisaka-inspired P-07, complete with hooked quillon. The rifle was seen primarily as an extension stick for holding a pointy thing to use in “real” combat. The “spirit of the pike” died hard; along with a LOT of young men.

And so came to pass, the abominable P-13 and its outrageous .280 cartridge. Probably inspired by the .280 Ross and similar “modern” cartridges of the day, the .280 “service” cartridge was not exactly “gentle” on rifles or their operators.

Because of the use of “tried and true” Cordite, major issues of accelerated bore erosion, ludicrous muzzle flash and blast, not to mention recoil, soon arose.

With a “modern” (even in those days) granular nitro-cellulose propellant, some of the erosion and flash would have been reduced.

It would not be until the late 1920s, with the advent of “slow” powders developed for the Browning .50 MG round, that such suitable propellants would be available.

The actions on the South African Veldt may well have been an additional influence. But, even here, the reality was not always as published in the “Times”.

Those pesky “farmers’ were often using a motley assortment of antiquated rifles alongside the rightly famous 7mm Mausers. They also used their small supply of medium and heavy machine-guns somewhat more imaginatively than the Brits and allies. Good tactics with inferior equipment is the hallmark of an effective force in “irregular” warfare. The Boer “marksmen” had a reputation for being able to “reach out and touch” any target they desired. What a lot of people forget is that, by the end of this unpleasant show, most of the Boers were doing this with Lee Enfields, “liberated” from their foes and kept fed in the spirit of, “let your enemy be your Quartermaster”.

The “concept”, such as it was, behind such a “super rifle’ as the P-13 was finally swept away by the grim realities of WW1. The cartridge may well have been useful for “bashing-in” armoured vision ports in opposing treches. However, it would have been an abomination in the hands of the average Tommy. That it originally came with a set of “volley” sights is more evidence that the designers had not been keeping up with Mr. Maxim and his toys, nor the influence of them on the battlefield.

The sighting system was not all that bad; the massive “ears” protected the rear-sight assembly quite well, but the “battle” aperture could have been a bit bigger; a feature that “evolved” on the Mk 6 / No4 series.

Finally: the ability to change the butt assembly on ANY Lee Enfield to accommodate soldiers of different statures, was an enormous boon in a army of millions that included “the long and the short and the oddball”, not to forget the huge advantage of simplifying the actual wood supply and repairs / maintenance.

[Bindi2]

The P 14 was only a stop gap. WW2 put paid to bolt action rifles as the main arm for the soldier. WW1 came to early for the P 13 to go into production hence the P 14. The P 14 is to long to heavy for any thing except sniper work as well as being to costly and time costly to manufacture.

[vintage hunter]

they didn't use common parts as a P14 made by Winchester couldn't use Remington parts etc.

Where did you get that idea from?

[Eaglelord17]

Where did you get that idea from?

Each factory produced parts from their own designs, leading to interchangeability issues, until they all adopted the P14* standard. There are actually 4 main manufactured models of P14s, P14W, P14R, P14E, and P14*. The letter following the designation was the factory that manufactured it (i.e. W was Winchester, R was Remington, and E was Eddystone).

This is only referring to the manufactured models, not those updated to things like Weedon standard.

[vintage hunter]

Each factory produced parts from their own designs, leading to interchangeability issues, until they all adopted the P14* standard. There are actually 4 main manufactured models of P14s, P14W, P14R, P14E, and P14*. The letter following the designation was the factory that manufactured it (i.e. W was Winchester, R was Remington, and E was Eddystone).

It may have a ring of truth to it but information found at Wikipedia is not to be relied on as being 100% accurate. If you look they only list 2 references, I don't have Hatchers Notebook but I do have Hesketh-Pritchard's and page 239 doesn't even mention a P14.

[Promo]

Nearly all is exchangeable, AFAIK only very early Winchester P.14 rifles had non-interchangeable parts with other manufacturers (what was also the reason for officially chosing only the Winchester rifle for sniper useage).

I remember when the UK introduced the spike bayonet the question arose, whether this bayonet was capable of penetrating a German winter coat - and that was still in officially peaceful times. So to claim that noone wanted war and everyone was thinking of peace by disarming might not be that correct.

[Badger]

For members who are unfamiliar with the 1913 Trials Rifle mentioned, check out the MKL for an nice article about it.

Pattern 1913 "Trials" Rifle (.276 in.) (click here) - 137 pic virtual tour


(Click PIC to Enlarge)

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

Regards,
Doug

[CINDERS]

Don't matter England did not have any rifles so had to find all from her colonies aussie land included so I guess the thought was if my rifle is going I might as well bleeding well go to,,,,
We did not have much of either but we gave them both and really walloped ém a goodun" but by heck they gave us a right pasting as well.
If Mustafa Kemal Attaturk had not commanded them and we got onto the right beach then it would have been us slaughtering them though we did do a grand job of each other in May I think

[Lee Enfield]

From what I have seen written the P14 timing was un-lucky as WW1 broke out before it had really been accepted and issued. There also seems to have been considerable politics going on where some didnt like the rimless ammo etc etc Plus the SMLE is a great short range battle rifle and the P14 not so much so more of a long range gun.

What "confuses" far more me is after WW1 and all the dis-advantages of the SMLE were well known is why we ended up with a no4 of the same design heritage and problems and not a "Pattern 1920". or even why when the 6.5mm or 7mm in rimless were shown to be better rounds we stuck with the 303 rimmed.

While we (Western Europeans,Pre-British Empire (You "Yanks" eh!) and "commonwealth" English speakers) think of WWI as ending in November 1918, war did not end for Central and Eastern Europe; In 1920 the (not yet stabilized) world was awash with small arms. Russia and central and eastern Europe was in various civil and wars of independence (Ireland, Ukraine, Poland, Finland, Red & White Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, Czechoslovakia ect.) and when you have 3 million P14s and 4 Million Enfields, and Billions of rounds of ammo in store for your 150,000 man peace time military it really doesn't make much sense to make an expensive change of material and training.

Exactly the same reasoning Macarthur used to kybosh the .276 Pederson cartridge... (which would have been close to what is today considered the "ideal cartridge")

Also 2 really good reasons for not adopting the P13 and .276 cartridge was related to the fact that 7Remington Magnum does not make a very good combat cartridge...way too much recoil...and pressure, resulting in at best in "sticky" extraction.

At the point in time of development, Britain had armed forces on all continents (Shackleton was on the Antarctic in 1913/14) and weather conditions. The .276 was a cartridge on the edge of a "pressure excursion" due to the "fast" powders and limited heat stability of the powders of the day.

After all, a war cartridge has to work in Northern Europe, India, Singapore jungles and African deserts in primitive storage conditions & exposures.

And, the cartridge itself is huge! I have a single round, but I also have the 5 round stripper clip charger....the cartridge base makes 300win mag look like a kiddy toy...

[Beerhunter]

I like to refer to it as a "modified Mauser" because it cocks on closing.