PPCo scope? Or something else

[Roger Payne]

Thanks Georg. You can see from the pictures that there's an obvious similarity between the Helios 3 & the scope it morphed into. What you suggest about the manufacturing sequence is quite possible, although at least some of the unmarked types could have been acquired from the UK domestic gun trade, having been bought in before the outbreak of war. It was common practice for one manufacturer to make the item & sell it to another concern who then marked it up as their own. But the honest answer is I don't really know - you could well be right! I have one transitional that has the lateral adjustment capstans, so I'll see whether that is 25mm dead or 25.4. That will be interesting.....

Information

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[Lee Enfield]

the last lines of the Helios 3 ad seem to indicate that the tube diameter was 25mm, the rear housing 35mm with 8cm eye relief, then between 23cm (short) , 27cm (middle) or 30cm (long) total length.

Does the ad indicate that the extra length is in the main tube, or the ocular housing?

[Promo]

The ad would translate as follows:
"the through his eminent bright and large flat field of view known and widely spread scope "Helios" is supplied in three different lenghts, to at a minimum lenght of the scope allow the many different ways of mounting. The optical power of these models is in particular to the brightness absolutely identical, only the very short model has a bit smaller field of view. Magnification 2,5x to 3x. Diameter of the ocular 35mm, diameter of the tube 25mm, eye relief about 8 cm."
In the table they list model designation, followed by lengh (long/medium/short), the lengh in cm, field of view in %, and the identical price for each of 90 Mark.
below that is written:
"All previously named Fuess scopes are, if not mentioned differently, equipped with "three quater needlecross" as reticle. Upon request the scopes can also - without additional price - be equipped with "wire with dot" and "complete cross". The scopes equipped with reticle No. 2 or 3, as shown on page 61, cost 8.5 Mark more."

So basically they give no information upon the strengh of the tube, would also not be a necessary information for someone thinking of purchasing this scope back then (they do not even name this today!).

Interesting is the name of the reticle, it assumes that the original British reticle was a Fuess invention which the British just overtook.

[Surpmil]

I would guess that this scope was a WWI capture piece later filed down and refitted with typical claw mounts. The original windage capstans with their dear little holes, into which Pte Atkins was supposed to insert a hat pin or something to make adjustments, were probably discarded with disgust along with the little square washers that fitted under them, and those screws fitted in place.

The drum or 'knob' was probably discarded and replaced with the rather home made looking present one, as the .303 markings would have been useless to the new German (?) owner.

The PPCo. was an abomination and the idea of a German having to use one I find quite sad! Somewhere in some old articles you sent me years ago Roger, I think it was one of the Fultons who was closely involved in sniping in WWI, who said the PPCo. should never have been accepted for service.

[Promo]

I would follow all of your words, that is exactly the same what I expected to be the history of how it came to be this way. But without being sure what the scope itself is, I do not want to start any restoration.

Roger, did you already measure your scopes? And Simon, do you have something to measure aswell?

[Roger Payne]

I think I may have been talking rubbish earlier. I can't believe it but I didn't notice the screws that have replaced the capstans - this with the PPCo engraving, as surpmil has pointed out, means that it is probably a standard PPCo scope that has been civilianised post war. This would fit in with it having a 'long cone' ocular housing. The transitionals I have seen have all been the 'short cone' & also have the flush brass objective housing like the original Fuess, not the slightly proud version on the finalised PPCo. Even so, it's still a great find for the price & I'd give it house room!

I'll measure my example this afternoon - have to dash to help father in law get to a hospital appointment just now. Don't know how I ever had time to work!

[Roger Payne]

As Peter would say........'An' annuverfing..............' I'm a real idiot for forgetting this, having had PPCo bases & rings reproduced on a number of occasions, but the PPCo scope itself is not 1" in diameter - I have measured a number in the past, & they are a tad under an inch. I'm speaking now from memory but I micrometered about half a dozen a while back & they measured around 0.986 to 0.990ish IIRC. This suggests that even when 'anglicised' the scopes were still made to the original Fuess diameter. Aldis scopes IIRC are dead on 1 inch in diameter, but not the PPCo.

[Promo]

So, mystery solved. It's a normal military PPCo which has been sporterized. Could I be able to tell if it once had been on the dovetail PPCo mount, or something else (did they even use the PPCo on something else?)? Wonder if it's restorable..

[Roger Payne]

Georg,
The scopes were soft-soldered into the dovetail mounts but were also held by two tiny screws. From memory I think they may be 10 BA but don't take that as gospel. They went through the mount & into the scope tube, so if you can see two tiny holes on the underside of the tube you probably have your answer....

ATB

[Surpmil]

I would not say it is restorable to original specs and PPCo. scopes are not rare enough to make it worth trying. It's interesting for what it is now.