Dad's Army P14s

[bigduke6]

The M1917 wasn't the only rifle which was sent here in WW2, for anyone interested the link below takes you to an article regarding M1903 rifles......

Red Star Remington Model 1903's

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Flying10uk]

I believe that the U.K., during WW1, used the P14 as a sniper rifle as well as being issued to second line troops and this was because the P14 was considered more accurate than the SMLE. I have seen one or two photos of platoon size groups of British soldiers during WW1 with all but one or two armed with the SMLE rifle and these one or two not with a SMLE are armed with the P14 rifle. I have never seen a picture of a P14 rifle in WW1 British service fitted with a scope but only with standard open sights. When the P14 was used in the sniper role by the British during WW1 was it ever fitted with a scope? I believe that the German Army had scopes fitted to their sniper rifles in WW1 but I stand to be corrected on this??? Did the British only use the standard open sights on their P14 rifles in the sniper role in WW1, please?

[Seaspriter]

Did the British only use the standard open sights on their P14 rifles in the sniper role in WW1, please?

I'm not an expert on this (my only P-14 is standard issue) but I did find some pics of the P14 Sniper.

Here's what one authority said: "Only Winchester P14s were converted because they were considered the most accurate. Apparently only a couple thousand Winchester P14s were converted to snipers using the Periscopic Prism M1918 or Aldis Telescopic sights. A relative handful (79) of them were converted later for the Irish Free State. Since the scope mount covered the receiver ring the rifles were renumbered on the righthand rear sight ear. Telescopes were numbered to the rifles. In 1926, following British standards, these were officially redesignated Rifle No. 3 Mk. 1* (T). The term "P14" stuck however as it is stamped on the buttstock of most examples. The No. 3 Mk 1 * (T) was standard up until the No. 4 (T) sniper came on line. The M1918 scope was good in its day but by the time WW2 rolled around it was old, obsolete, not moisture proof and delicate. 2001 P14 rifles were converted by PP Co and 79 by BSA. The 421 Aldis scoped rifles were introduced in 1940, having been converted by Alexander Martin of Glasgow."

I'm sure others have more to contribute or correct on this.

[Promo]

The pictured rifle in particular is an interwar production which was made for Ireland. However, the only difference from the issued WWI sniper is the fact that the WWI scope is not BSA made, the shape of the front scope blocks is a bit different plus the newly added numbering on the receiver differs.

WWI P.14 sniper rifles have a Periscopic Prism Co. made telescope and the fine adjustable rear sight. Skennerton mentions in his book (and also shows with pictures) that there were also Aldis scopes used on late P.14 sniper rifles.

In the inter-war period there were - as also mentioned - additional 421 P.14 rifles converted to snipers, using a newly invented sniper mount by Scottish gunsmith Alexander Martin. Besides that there are pictures known where a Canadian sniper in WWII uses a P.14 rifle with the Canadian Warner & Swasey Musket Sight Model of 1913 Telescope. Additional trials were done on the P.14 action with different mounts, one of them being the so-called "Ainley"-rifle.

[gsimmons]

Attachment 67695

[RRPG]

A must for all P14s.......adapter for mounting the LE grenade discharger cup on to a P14. I have four of these, recovered from a British army dump site here in the UK.

Attachment 67697

Attachment 67696

[jamie5070]

The 577-450 cartridge in the picture is of the earlier type made before they had the ability to make them in a solid brass case. The case is formed from thin brass that was folded to the desired shape. It was crimped on to an iron/steel base that holds the primer. The bullet was wrapped with a paper patch before being loaded.
john

[Mk VII]

As the war went on, the documents in the Public Records Office show a concerted effort to locate all P-14s in the Home Guard (and any other .303s) and exchange them for M1917s, and also Sten guns. Some static Army units also had .303s withdrawn and .30 rifles issued instead.

When J.M. Keynes went to Washington in 1945 to supervise the wind-up of the British Lend-Lease accounts he tried to get a refund of the cash-and-carry payments involved in the general settlement, and they wouldn't have it. There was considerable hostility in Washington to giving Britain any kind of financial assistance at the end of the war, partly because the administration was still seeing Britain through the prism of a rival for its postwar trade rather than an ally against communism.

[Seaspriter]

When J.M. Keynes went to Washington in 1945 to supervise the wind-up of the British Lend-Lease accounts he tried to get a refund of the cash-and-carry payments involved in the general settlement, and they wouldn't have it. There was considerable hostility in Washington to giving Britain any kind of financial assistance at the end of the war, partly because the administration was still seeing Britain through the prism of a rival for its postwar trade rather than an ally against communism.

Interesting observation. The situation after the war was quite complex -- both the U.S. and Britain were deep in debt after fighting an enormously expensive series of wars around the world. The Russian saber-rattling in Eastern Europe, the need to maintain a strong defense, and the need to create a NATO alliance, the support for West Germany, the pacification of Germany and Japan, and Britain's desire to hold its Commonwealth Empire together were major forces in foreign policy at the time. Also, De Gaulle's refusal to use its gold reserves to help pay for the ally's cost of liberating France simply placed too much financial pressure on too little money. It was a time of complexity and confusion -- no one knew precisely how to place their bets, especially with Stalin being the Wild Card.

[Beerhunter]

The situation after the war was quite complex -- both the U.S. and Britain were deep in debt after fighting an enormously expensive series of wars around the world.

However the US economy was massively bigger than it was before the war whereas the British one was in ruins - both economically and physically.

BTW, as to Home Guard arms it could be thought of at one point as a 30-06 Army. Not only M1917 rifles but Colt M1917 Machine Guns and Savage Lewis aircraft guns converted for ground use. In common with many CCF contingents we as lots of Home Guard Manuals for the above.