Mystery of the Missing Wartime Long Branch Snipers

[Lee Enfield]

Trials rifle with Canadian scope mount #L32394 BSA Enfield No 4 Mk. I (T) 1931 Sniper Rifle : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.comAttachment 74267

L32394 is actually a BSA serial number, and while the Rings do show a reinforced rear arm similar to that found on Long Branch rings they are actually of British manufacture, as they do not show other LB characteristics.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Roger Payne]

I've had a few 71L's & 90L's go through my books over the years. I think I've posted them on previous threads. Many years ago I bought a 39L 1943 dated rifle complete with REL Mk1A scope. It had never been FTR'd & was a little peach - I just regret I let a mate in NZ prise it out of me!

I would agree with Brian & others that AFAIK the 4T production was 'pooled', with rifles being issued to where they were required when they were required, regardless of who made them. Thus the majority of Canadian T's would have gone into service with other than Canadian units - there is specific mention of the No4 Mk1* (T) in British EMERS, for example. I suspect that if we were in a position to measure attrition rates between Long Branch & BSA Shirley produced rifles (& for that matter Trials, Savage & Maltby rifles) we would find similar rates of loss, & probably quite high over the years, as the victors of WW2 continued using their issue weapons for a lengthy period after the cessation of hostilities. The Germans had theirs taken off them!

[Lee Enfield]

My edited serial number notes, now updated to 2.23.16
Left column is current numbers in serial block, early blocks may have rifles "grouped" into exact 1000 blocks.

NUMBERS BREAK-DOWN
"survivors & known serials "x "Block"/ "est. total" )

1x 0L9 1/3=33%
1x 8L7 1/3=33%
1x 12L4 1/3=33%
2x 32L 2/3=67%
2x 36L5 2/3=67%
1x 39L7 1/3=33%
1x 42L7 1/3=33%
1x 43L9 1/3=33%
5x 45L1 5/20=25%
1x 45L5 1/3+33%
7x 50L0 7/50=14%
1x 63L5 1/3=33%
5x 64L7 5/10=50%
8x 68L3 8/50=16%
51x 71L0 51/660=7.7%
42x 74L0 42/350=12%
9x 80L8 9/84=10.7%
85x 90L8 85/375=22.6%
2x ExP 4/15=13% (Badger/Hahn/2xCollectorS)
56L5967 (exp Alu weaver WOW)

My est. 1619 rifles vs. 1588 W.O.W. documents

Reducing ‘42/’43 estimated numbers to published 71 14/71 20% of documented pre-’44 rifles=1590 (not including experimentals)

1519 "production rifles" estimated produced during 1944-46
71 "production rifles" produced before Jan1, 1944
= 1590 estimated "Production" sniping rifles at Long Branch (ie. not ASC/ASE ect.) ... pretty darn close to the documented 1588 number.



29- ’43 or earlier (dated receiver) documented serial numbers as of 2.23.16

Note: just because the receiver is dated 1943, doesn't mean that the gun was CONVERTED before Jan1, 1944 and may NOT be included in the 71 "Total" by Jan1, 1944.

I would also note that 1 serial number would place the rifle in mid 1941 receiver dated production (although the barrel would be dated 1942 in my experience).
2 rifles would be dated 1942... arguing that the Long Branch sniper rifle conversion program started in early 1942, or late 1941.

I would note that sniping rifles are likely to survive at a higher percentage due to their "valuable and attractive" nature...this is often observed in relation to "special order" (engraved ect.) sporting firearms. So the high proportion of surviving early serial numbers is not difficult to explain.

[Lee Enfield]

Sorry for any confusion, this was a PM from Seaspriter

...snip...
So I ran your numbers through a spread sheet and came up with an anomaly. Perhaps you'd like to help figure it out.
The Marshall Production Reports state (for the years 1944-46)
1944: Total Snipers produced: 644
Q1-‘45 Snipers Produced: 254 Total: 898.
Q2-’45:Snipers Produced: 24, Total 922.
Q3-’45: Snipers Produced: 161, with total production of this item up to 1,083
Q4-’45: Snipers produced: 58, Total 1,141
Dec 31 1945: Small Arms Limited Uncompleted contracts: Sniper’s Rifle – 376;
Total (1944-46)= 1,517

If I take the 1941-43 estimates in your data base (serial blocks 0L9-50L0), your estimates total = 97

Added together 97+1517 = 1614 (just 25 or so more than your estimates -- which means your estimates are pretty close!)
Nothing to quibble about -- as our data becomes more clear, the picture will become even more accurate.
...snip...

My reply:
My estimated production numbers for each serial block is based on observed survivors and reported serial numbers.

The large numbers (50) for the 50L block (for example) is based on the known serial numbers, but I no longer believe (due to the large serial spread -approx. 80 serials [call it 0004 thru 0080, then an outlier at 0300] that the 50L block snipers were actually a "block", I do believe that they are still batch production, ie) pull 15-20 completed or semi-completed rifles off the line for conversion.

Indications are that the first stage of the program started (likely) based on selecting an accurate rifle and converting it.

The second stage was likely started when Peter's oft referred to H&H production specialist showed up to solve the low production problems. It was to go down and select a "batch" of 10-20 completed rifles (not necessarily consecutive, but close) and segregate them for conversion. For example 2 of the 45L1 serial numbers are consecutive and the other 3 are all within 10 serials of each other. the 64L [62 serials] and 68L [65 serials] blocks are very similar - more reported numbers would tell for sure if they are "batch" or "Block" numbers.

The third stage was true "serial block" [71L, 74L, 80L, 90L] production in that serial number "blocks" were set aside and receivers were converted and guns assembled as snipers...never having been standard service rifles.

This is one reason why the 71L serial block shows markings variations and both 1944 and 1945 dates... for instance there were at least 2 "5" number fonts used on the receiver date stamp.

[Seaspriter]

Indications are that the first stage of the program started (likely) based on selecting an accurate rifle and converting it.

The second stage was likely started when Peter's oft referred to H&H production specialist showed up to solve the low production problems. It was to go down and select a "batch" of 10-20 completed rifles (not necessarily consecutive, but close) and segregate them for conversion.

The third stage was true "serial block" production in that serial number "blocks" were set aside and receivers were converted and guns assembled as snipers...never having been standard service rifles.

Thanks so much for this insight and makes eminent sense. Those who have experienced manufacturing production systems certainly know the difference between very small batches (one-off bespoke), cluster batches, and large mass production. Of course, no mass production continuous flow manager wants to do small batches, it requires a different type of production approach.

On a related subject, here's what the data is starting to show (I will update in future posts):
Wartime Production (1941-Q2/1945): ~1025 Snipers produced, 9% accounted for
War's End Production (Q3-4/1945): 219 Snipers produced, 21% accounted for
Post War Production (1946): 376 Snipers produced, 23% accounted for

This means the total produced was in the range of (low) 1,588 to (high) 1,620 (not including the experimental models). As more data comes in we will get more clear what is most accurate and I will share the data base analysis.

[Lee Enfield]

Thanks so much for this insight and makes eminent sense. Those who have experienced manufacturing production systems certainly know the difference between very small batches (one-off bespoke), cluster batches, and large mass production. Of course, no mass production continuous flow manager wants to do small batches, it requires a different type of production approach.

On a related subject, here's what the data is starting to show (I will update in future posts):
Wartime Production (1941-Q2/1945): ~820 Snipers produced, 8% accounted for
War's End Production (Q3-4/1945): 434 Snipers produced, 11% accounted for
Post War Production (1946): 376 Snipers produced, 23% accounted for

This means the total produced was in the range of (low) 1,588 to (high) 1,630 (not including the experimental models). As more data comes in we will get more clear what is most accurate and I will share the data base analysis.

The 1588 number is from the National Archives so I would take that to be the ceiling.

I think the only place we can play is in the actual size of the earlier (pre-"block") production batches. The later "block" serial groups are pretty plain.
known (observed) low and high rifle serials:

71L low known serial is 0237 thru 653
74L 000 thru 340
80L 002 thru 092
90L 003 thru 328 but known Mk3 telescopes are serial numbered from 1c to 352c

If the Canadian Army retained 71L 000 thru 71L 200 and 90L 330 thru 90L 375 that would help to explain the "off the market" Long Branch No4 T rifles.

Having said that, the Canadian War museum attributes 90L8141-189C to use by “Ted” Zuber - Korea War sniper (and artist).

1950's Canadian armourers instructions and parts catalogues illustrate the No32 MkII, No32 TP, C.No67 and No32 Mk3 scopes.

[Seaspriter]

If the Canadian Army retained 71L 000 thru 71L 200 and 90L 330 thru 90L 375 that would help to explain the "off the market" Long Branch No4 T rifles.

These certainly seem to be "missing" serial numbers; interesting hypothesis if the Canadian Army retained these -- this represents nearly 250 "missing" Snipers. If in the possession of the Canadian Army, someone has a record of them (unless they went to clandestine forces in Europe or to fight the Cold War -- does this seem reminiscent discussion of the Irish Contract a decade later?). Perhaps (clear speculation) they are sitting in some old warehouse, awaiting discovery? (The Indiana Jones scenario -- I'm dreaming).

[Seaforth72]

74L0350 perhaps as the highest SN sniper in the 74Lxxxx series rather than 74L0340 as 350 are reported to have been ordered, not 340 as the serial number range quoted above would allow for. Earlier accounts as quoted in Skennerton said 100 were ordered but Clive Law's research now says 350 in "Without Warning" and his research is pretty solid.

The 74Lxxxx with the No. 32 TP MK.I scopes (made by Lyman) reportedly all (other than test/sample specimens) stayed in Canadian service, even though some like my scope SN 4407S (but not all) have a /|\ British issue mark following the serial number. At least one was used by the Canadian Army in the Korean War (photographuc evidence). In the 1950s Canada gave away several divisions' worth of vehicles and weapons to NATO allies such as Italy, France, Holland and Norway. As Canada was starting to standadize on US vehicles and weapons (though in the end we only did a partial changeover), the WWII British style kit was surplus. By the 1950s Canada had a few M1C sniper rifles with infra-red sights and some M1D sniper rifles. With the adoption of the 7.62mm NATO round, these became surplus as well by the early 1960s.

I have been told that a bunch of the 74Lxxxx sniper rifles ended up going to the Netherlands, likely as NATO aid. The Dutch reportedly scrapped a bunch of the rifles but a chap brought about 50 (?) scopes and mounts back to Canada and they were sold to collectors etc. For that reason collectors need to be especially careful of rifles fitted with these rare Lyman military scopes as they could be fitted to other rifles. At least one has been fitted (post-war by a civilian owner presumably) to a Stevens-Savage made rifle. Some armourers reportedly assembled some sniper clones and there are reports of unnumbered Long Branch bodies being assembled into complete rifles - or as legitimate in-service replacement bodies and some Lyman scopes MAY have been mated with these buckshee. In at least one case, one 74Lxxxx rifle has a serial number in the correct 74Lxxxx range but with an A suffix. In the British Army the A suffix meant that there were some non-standard parts. I suspect (hypothesis only) that that is used here to indicate that this body is a replacement one, with the serial number copied from the bracket, and an A suffux added to make it slightly different. It is also possible that the A suffux was an army replacement body in-service. I do not know.

As for missing sniper rifles - some likely ended up going from Canada to the countries above. An ex-Italian Navy one with a British scope was sold recently. The chest had Italian markings. I wonder what happened to those sent to Norway for example? Those sent to the UK are mixed in with the British rifles and were disposed of in normal manners. At least one ex-Indian service has shown up.

The theory that some were lost in the Battle of the Atlantic seems to be invalid. "Wheaty" me that these were sent to the UK aboard aircraft.

A few sporterized sniper rifles do show up. Stencollector in Manitiba found one still with its original REL scope and he has done an excellent restoration job. I have a 1943 BSA (ex- PA, USA) that was also sporterized but fortunately the metal was not cut. It has now been restored using original parts. The scope and bracket turned up in Nebraska in 2014 mismatched with a Trials No.4 MK. I (T) . The rifle was sold separately and the scope and bracket (numbered to my rifle ) were returned to the consignee and the dealer would not provide the contact information. :-(

Remember that when sold surplus, even the sniper rifles were fairly cheap. I bought my first sniper, a 1945 BSA all matching, complete in the chest and mint, for $75 back in the early 1970s from Lever Arms in Vancouver, BC. The normal price was $100 so I waited for his January sale. I later carried that rifle on army exercise, and my Platoon Sgt brought his, as we were not issued sniper rifles at that time.

The 1588 number is from the National Archives so I would take that to be the ceiling.

I think the only place we can play is in the actual size of the earlier (pre-"block") production batches. The later "block" serial groups are pretty plain.
known low and high rifle serials:

71L low known serial is 0237 thru 651
74L 000 thru 340
80L 002 thru 092
90L 003 thru 328 but known Mk3 telescopes are serial numbered from 1c to 352c

If the Canadian Army retained 71L 000 thru 71L 200 and 90L 330 thru 90L 375 that would help to explain the "off the market" Long Branch No4 T rifles.

1950's Canadian armourers instructions and parts catalogues illustrate the No32 MkII, No32 TP, C.No67 and No32 Mk3 scopes.

[paul87buick]

Apparently my name is missing an I it should be paul87buick not paul87buck LOL still have71L0350 C, No. 32 405C scope and mount are long gone who knows where is any body's guess

[paul87buick]

FOUND THIS AT Highwood Classic Arms WEB PAGE https://www.highwoodclassicarms.co.u...e%20report.pdfAttachment 117139