P14/P17 lower and upper handguard.

[fjruple]

Flying10uk--

You are quite right the P14 action will fit loosely in the M1917 stock however not the reverse. The magazine is too long on the M1917 to fit the P14 stock. I am in the process of rebuilding two P14s and I am amazed at the lack of commonality of parts between the three different manufacturers of the P14. For example my Winchester P14 magazine box will not fit the Eddystone and the same holds true for the Eddystone. I am surprised that the British purchasing commission would let them get away with that. US Ordnance insisted on a commonality of parts for the M1917.

--fjruple

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Buster95]

Flying10uk--

You are quite right the P14 action will fit loosely in the M1917 stock however not the reverse. The magazine is too long on the M1917 to fit the P14 stock. I am in the process of rebuilding two P14s and I am amazed at the lack of commonality of parts between the three different manufacturers of the P14. For example my Winchester P14 magazine box will not fit the Eddystone and the same holds true for the Eddystone. I am surprised that the British purchasing commission would let them get away with that. US Ordnance insisted on a commonality of parts for the M1917.

--fjruple

The firing pin and cocking piece are all compatible between the 3 manufacturers?

---------- Post added at 04:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:35 PM ----------

Flying10uk--

One of the good indications of the P14 stock is the dial volley sight base on the left hand side of the gun. I am aware of subcontract replacement P14 stocks being made in the UK without the dial volley sight base. Unfortunately I am not aware of the particulars to tell them apart. I guess one way is looking at the length of the magazine box well in the stock. The P14 is shorter.

Cheers

--fjruple

P14 stock without the dial volley sight base and even without the cutout in the stock for this base exist? I know a person with a P14 with a "plain" stock, no base no cut out but with finger grooves.

[fjruple]

The firing pin and cocking piece are all compatible between the 3 manufacturers? From the sources that I have seen the cocking piece and firing pins for the P14 were non-interchangeable. For the Model of 1917 those parts were interchangeable with the possible exception of the first 10,000 Winchester M1917s. Winchester jumped the gun and built these rifles without ordnance drawings from US Army Ordnance. General Pershing refused to have Winchester M1917s deployed to the Western front due to the compatibility issues.

---------- Post added at 04:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:35 PM ----------



P14 stock without the dial volley sight base and even without the cutout in the stock for this base exist? I know a person with a P14 with a "plain" stock, no base no cut out but with finger grooves.

My understanding is a number of replacement stocks were manufactured in the UK as replacements for broken stocks during the major rebuild program in the late 1930's. I don't have any further information on these stocks other than they did not have the long range dial sights.

--fjruple

[Mk VII]

Flying10uk-- I am surprised that the British purchasing commission would let them get away with that. US Ordnance insisted on a commonality of parts for the M1917.

--fjruple

We should remember that the British were dealing with each factory on a commercial basis and there was no incentive for each facility to ensure interchangeability or cooperation or revelation of trade secrets. The British thought they needed the guns a lot more than the manufacturers needed their business (and indeed Winchester ended up making a loss on their British contracts, which made them reluctant to treat with Britain again in the next war.)

Once Uncle Sam was paying the bills they were forced to start paying closer attention to interchangeability. But it remained problematic.
C.S. Ferris's United States Rifle Model of 1917 shows photos of Winchester and Remington front h/g's with the different length of the metal clip and the placement of the rivets.

[fjruple]

We should remember that the British were dealing with each factory on a commercial basis and there was no incentive for each facility to ensure interchangeability or cooperation or revelation of trade secrets. The British thought they needed the guns a lot more than the manufacturers needed their business (and indeed Winchester ended up making a loss on their British contracts, which made them reluctant to treat with Britain again in the next war.)

I don't know if that is quite true. Winchester was caught by the British Purchasing Commission spending their money on other commercial products to include new buildings not related to the P14 production. Today we would call that Contractor fraud. I could see the British Purchasing Commission in WWII not being to thrilled at asking Winchester to produce war material for them after what happened in WWI. Additionally the Russians had no problem getting what they wanted when it came to the production of the Mosin-Nagant rifle in the US.

Once Uncle Sam was paying the bills they were forced to start paying closer attention to interchangeability. But it remained problematic.
C.S. Ferris's United States Rifle Model of 1917 shows photos of Winchester and Remington front h/g's with the different length of the metal clip and the placement of the rivets.

Winchester has always been a problem child with the M1917 production. They started off by producing 10,000 M1917 rifle of their design and not to any US government specification. General Pershing insisted that no Winchester M1917s be shipped to the AEF due to the lack of compatiblity. In WWII, Winchester always dragged their feet in making updated changes to the M1 they were producing. I could never understand why collectors always preferred the Winchester over the Springfield Armory produced guns. I always found the Winchester's to be poorly finished compared to the Springfield Armory M1s.

--fjruple

[Flying10uk]

When my P14 stock arrives I'll post some pictures of it. I'm keeping my fingers crossed a bit on it because the pictures of it on eBay were not great and it was difficult to tell the condition of it but I got it for a good price. I may try to make the top/upper hand guard by converting something else if I can think of a suitable donor part.

[fjruple]

Flying10uk--

One of the good indications of the P14 stock is the dial volley sight base on the left hand side of the gun. I am aware of subcontract replacement P14 stocks being made in the UK without the dial volley sight base. Unfortunately I am not aware of the particulars to tell them apart. I guess one way is looking at the length of the magazine box well in the stock. The P14 is shorter.

Cheers

--fjruple

[Baldy44]

I have a P14 stock in the 1917 pattern on one of my P14 Winchesters. No gap in front of the forward action screw, but you can tell from the shape (squared off) of the front 2 corners of the floorplate, that its for a 1917. Looks good. Looks old. Is it totally incorrect?

[Flying10uk]

fjruple, are you reusing the same stocks in your P14 rebuilds that came with the rifles or have you sourced replacements? My P14 stock arrived today and it is in much better condition than I was expecting, requiring just 2 very minor repairs to replace wood that has been chipped. I would describe the condition as having a lovely patina to it and I will post some pictures soon.

[fjruple]

Flying10uk--

I am actually going to redo the stocks. I have been a licensed gunsmith since 1972 and usually I have to unBubba guns that were screwed with. Repairs to the bored out holes in the stock is an easy fit. The rear upper handguard are a little thin to be fixing those holes. It was just easy to replace them with better condition ones. Those old stocks I usually soak them in hot water with wood beach to get the hundred years of grease, dirt and paint off of the stock. Then I will steam out the dents. I will leave any ordnance marks along. Once cleaned and fix the American Black Walnut stock will come out quite nice.

--fjruple