UK Proofing Question

[mrclark303]

Hi Glove

Thank you for your information. I have as you say the marks on the receiver and barrel but not on the bolt. I have contacted the Birmingham proof house and they say that there should be one on the bolt. Which is now confusing as I am sure you are right and we must have a reciprocal agreement with Italian guns. (Didn't have your info when I phoned them.)
The only question which puzzles me is why there are different standards within a international agreement with the uk seemingly inssisting on having an extra mark.

Regards Chubbs

It's always the way I'm afraid. Most follow the agreed CIP rules (sometimes not), proof marks should obviously be applied to all pressure baring components, or whats the point? As we have discussed many times before on here, it's a pointless anarchical process anyway, but it's an internationally agreed legal requirement, so that's that unfortunately.

The issue might come when you sell it on Chubb's, I hope not, but it could be an issue.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Giove]

Chubbs, try reading on page 4: proof test marks and data registration.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/hearin...o/genco_en.pdf

[DanL96a1]

Found this online might help?

http://www.nramuseum.com/media/940944/proofmarks.pdf
http://www.gunproof.com/Proof_Memoranda/RULESOFP.PDF

[Chubbs]

Hi DanL96a1

Thanks for those. I had read through them and it is confusing to as whether the Italian practice of not proof marking their bolts is acceptable in the UK.

Regards Chubbs

[Buccaneer]

If the bolt does not have the same serial number as the rest of the rifle there is no guarantee that the gun has been proofed as a whole unit. In theory there should be proof marks on the barrel, action, bolt handle and bolt head.
All these are pressure bearing parts and can of course be changed independently of each other.
It is not unusual to find a miss matched rifle ie different serial numbers to the bolt and action but providing there are proof marks on the individual components then it is accepted that the rifle has been through proof as a unit.
I have also seen fully matched rifles that only have visible proof marks on the barrel and action with nothing visible on the bolt but as the numbers all match it is accepted that the rifle has been proofed as a unit.
There are in theory some very heavy fines for selling an un-proofed firearm in the UK, up to £1000 per transaction. From the description of your rifle and piece of mind I would suggest that you have your rifle checked to ensure that the bolt was properly "fitted" to the rifle and not just thrown in, get the headspace checked and then submit it to the proof house, that way you know that is safe to shoot and it fully complies with the UK proof laws.

[mrclark303]

If the bolt does not have the same serial number as the rest of the rifle there is no guarantee that the gun has been proofed as a whole unit. In theory there should be proof marks on the barrel, action, bolt handle and bolt head.
All these are pressure bearing parts and can of course be changed independently of each other.
It is not unusual to find a miss matched rifle ie different serial numbers to the bolt and action but providing there are proof marks on the individual components then it is accepted that the rifle has been through proof as a unit.
I have also seen fully matched rifles that only have visible proof marks on the barrel and action with nothing visible on the bolt but as the numbers all match it is accepted that the rifle has been proofed as a unit.
There are in theory some very heavy fines for selling an un-proofed firearm in the UK, up to £1000 per transaction. From the description of your rifle and piece of mind I would suggest that you have your rifle checked to ensure that the bolt was properly "fitted" to the rifle and not just thrown in, get the headspace checked and then submit it to the proof house, that way you know that is safe to shoot and it fully complies with the UK proof laws.

Sound advice from buccaneer, definitely worth making sure the bolt has been correctly fitted.

The Italians really did chuck all the bolts into a wire cage, so matching up rifles and bolts would have been a labourous and tedious task... Looking for a needle in a pile of needles!

That aside, this must have been the last time that a significant batch of Enfield's have been surplussed and made available to collectors.

[Giove]

I think it's always good to use the gauges go/no-go if you want to shoot the rifle, either the bolt is matched or not matched.

[Chubbs]

I think it's always good to use the gauges go/no-go if you want to shoot the rifle, either the bolt is matched or not matched.

Headspace has been checked again by gunsmith and ok. Previous to that I had fired over 150 rounds through it. I really didn't have any concerns over the rifle failing just the legality of it especially if I went on to sell it.

Regards Lee

---------- Post added at 11:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 AM ----------

Why don't you contact the Birmingham Proof House and ask.

The Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House, Banbury Street, Birmingham B5 5RH, England, Tel. 0121 643 3860, Fax 0121 643 7872

Thanks for the info but they were my first port of call. They state that the bolt should have a mark which is contrary the CIP agreement.

Regards Chubbs

[Giove]

That aside, this must have been the last time that a significant batch of Enfield's have been surplussed and made available to collectors.

Here in Italy, the PMAL of Terni still has a good number of Lee-Enfield, not the ten thousand sold from the Taranto Navy depot, but a lot, including a number of trainers.

[Chubbs]

Hi Guys

Having read
Commission Internationale Permanente pour l’Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives
Permanent International Commission for Firearms Testing
“Marking Firearms”
And Council Directive 91/477/EEC of 18 June 1991

and sought some further advice it now seems as though the following extract is the pertinent

Proof-test marks and data registration
In accordance with C.I.P. Decision XVII-11, the firearm is marked by the proof house with the internationally recognised proof-test marks if it has successfully passed all the previously mentioned tests:
1) On all firearms with the exception of revolvers: on each barrel action body, frame or essential item of the closing mechanism;
2) For revolvers: on the barrel, cylinder and frame;
3) An identification mark showing the year of manufacture will also be indicated on all firearms (this makes it easier to trace the firearm in subsequent years);
4) The barrel weight, internal diameter of each barrel and length of cartridge chamber must also be marked on smooth-bore firearms.

So despite what the uk proof house says the actual answer is that as long as it has been through a signatory (CIP) proof house it does not have to have a stamp on the bolt.

Regards Chubbs