Help Identify this Number 4 Mk. 2

[davidwrankin]

Speaking of terminology, is "bog-standard" a phrase used down KY way; I always thought that was another British term?

I am Kentucky born and bred, but I watched a LOT of British shows on PBS growing up, and we still watch a lot of British TV. (I am currently loading my newly-purchased region 2 box set of ALL of Last of the Summer Wine to the media server for binging...) I catch myself using British slang unintentionally quite a bit.

Back to the gun:

Thanks everyone for the posting. As I mentioned to Alan in a PM, if I wanted to let this be a wall hanger and wanted to refinish the gun, I'd be tempted to try to etch out the markings (CSI-like). However, I don't want to ruin the finish that is still on the gun, and I'd be a bit afraid that removing more metal might weaken the body/receiver.

One thing I do want to finish pinning down: can we tell visually this is a Mk 2? If not, how can we tell without markings the difference between a Mk 1/2 and a Mk 2? This is the first Enfield I've ever seen disassembled, so I just don't know enough to tell.

There could be an England -> Pakistan -> India path for the gun, and India scrubbed the gun to clean Pakistani proof marks. I don't think a gun seller cleaned it, because they would have no incentive to remark the serial number correctly in all four spots. A forger would have wanted to add factory marks and make it look more authentic. As it is, either BSA or a different Enfield-aware armorer restamped the Mk 2 locations with the A1848 serial number intentionally and correctly.

Did BSA use Savage parts for their FTRs, or could it have picked up the furniture in India as part of an armorer swap or FTR there? The buttstock has a slightly different finish color than the front furniture, so I suspect that it picked the buttstock up as an armorer's swap or during the grenade refit in India.

I suspect that most of the history of "A1828" is going to be a mystery, but I'm OK with that. What we do know about the gun points to a remarkable 70+ year history already, and I want to make sure it can stay in serviceable condition for at least that much longer.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Surpmil]

Do you think it was changed or just over-struck?

So the "FTR --" electro-pencilled we take to be BSA and the banged-in "No4 Mk2" Indian or Pakistani ?

Would be worth checking the fit of the butt in the socket BTW.

[Alan de Enfield]

The OP is having trouble posting his video and has asked if I can try and post it for him - so, here goes, lets see if the link works :

Well it looks like it is working, but starts at 6 minutes - maybe you'll have to 're-wind' back to the start.

[gsimmons]

And to add to the confusion, the fore-end and band are from an Indian grenade launching rifle. Like this one.




The markings have also been linished off the body and buttsocket.

[Daan Kemp]

Insufficient data. Photo of whole rifle, and then all numbers and markings on metal and wood possibly remaining, eg on bolt, butt, fore end, would help to answer the question. They couldn't have removed every single one hopefully, especially on the wood.

From the two photos there is only one conclusion, a grenade launching LE modernised in India.

[Giove]

Surpmil, thank you for your input.

I think the action is a BSA FTR'd by BSA, with the S.N. changed as it was typical of BSA FTR.

I don't know if the S.N. A1818 comes from BSA and India just kept it, or if the S.N. was replaced in India.

The rifle was certainly issued in India as can be seen from the screw, from the asterisk on the action ring and from the slots for the grenade launcher (as well as the stamp with the Indian depot).

[Surpmil]

Aha, PBS gets the blame around here too, least for Pythonisms, but that day is done. The later stuff just doesn't ring true to me, or if it does, who wants to know?

Kentucky I thought was Scots-Irish territory, but I see on looking it was over 50% English; speaking of which you must have enjoyed "The Story of English" on PBS.

Alright "back to the gun" if we must.

Yes, a Mk2 is easy to spot from the cross bolt rather than the cross strap on the back of the forend.

I doubt the Pakistanis proofed anything, unless it was made at Pakistan Ordnance Factories (where all the Fazackerly machinery reportedly went)

The mixture of makers means nothing; as Peter Laidler has said many times, whatever parts met spec and fitted were used once in service.

[Alan de Enfield]

I doubt the Pakistanis proofed anything, unless it was made at Pakistan Ordnance Factories (where all the Fazackerly machinery reportedly went)

From an old post of Peter's :

"It came from BSA. They were required to retain and maintain the old No4 manufacturing capacity on a care and maintenance basis for 10 years after the last rifle production - so in 1955 it was sold on".

I suggested to David that it was 'originally' a Fazakerley and your confirmation that it is a No4 Mk2, rather than a No4 Mk1/2 it confirms its parentage.

If it is a Mk2 then it would be an early 50's rifle (but the serial number does not stack up with that date) and it must have had a very hard life to require an FTR in '53

Fazakerley
BSA (FTR in 1953)
Sold to India and scrubbed & new number during re-fit to make it a grenade rifle, eventually sold out of service
Arrived in the USA

[davidwrankin]

I took A1828 apart again to confirm it's a Mk 2 (more on that next post), and I tried to use a crayon to fill in the engravings. I suspect there's too much oil on the gun for the wax crayon to stick, so I started cleaning the finish off. I don't know if it was the denatured alcohol or the scrubbing, the following marking appeared in the remains of the painted finish:

Attachment 110392

I can't tell if it's anything at all, but it vaguely looks like 4 numbers or letters. Not sure if it means anything, but I tried to enhance the photo to pull them out a little more.

If it's just marks, feel free to ignore.

[Alan de Enfield]

I took A1828 apart again to confirm it's a Mk 2 (more on that next post), and I tried to use a crayon to fill in the engravings. I suspect there's too much oil on the gun for the wax crayon to stick, so I started cleaning the finish off. I don't know if it was the denatured alcohol or the scrubbing, the following marking appeared in the remains of the painted finish:

Attachment 110392

I can't tell if it's anything at all, but it vaguely looks like 4 numbers or letters. Not sure if it means anything, but I tried to enhance the photo to pull them out a little more.

If it's just marks, feel free to ignore.

It says "FTR 195?"

I did suggest this to you and I think the missing number will be 3
BSA did their big FTR programme in 1953