I remember when we used to shoot them.

[Teleoceras]

Dogtag:

You can't overload with BP. The cases were meant to be full.
Of course, if you stuff in 4F, all bets are off.

With a muzzleloader it is very easy to overload which could have painful or fatal consequences.

You are correct about 4Fg though.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[dogtag]

Maybe you missed the word "CASES"
We were talking about Cap'n'ball pistols and BP Cartridge, not muzzleloaders.

[Teleoceras]

Dogtag:

Maybe you missed the word "CASES"
We were talking about Cap'n'ball pistols and BP Cartridge, not muzzleloaders.

No, I was referring to the phrase "You can't overload with BP".

[Embalmer]

Ive seen someone blow apart their stock with using just blanks. Idiot put the equivilent of 280 grains of 2f down the barrel of a repro 42 springfield with a patch, and fired. recoil almost knocked him over, and shattered the stock. Was damn lucky I wasnt the one next to him, or I would have bayoneted him myself. Though think the other filemates did take care of him, and far as I know ws booted from the hobby.

[Patrick Chadwick]

First, a word of caution. There is a lot of nonsense purveyed with regard to flintlock and percussion pistols and rifles, some of it dangerous, starting with the claim "you cannot overload" them. And the "dogtag" quote has already caused confusion as well as being dangerously simplistic, as anyone can confirm who ever stuffed a Martini-Henry case full of whatever powder.

For reliable information on the safe loading and shooting of rifles and pistols, I recommend that you contact your national Muzzle Loaders Association, who might also be able to put you in touch with someone who can make a better "hands-on" evaluation than I can from photographs. For Canada, a good start would be the Canadian MLAIC representative Ed Martin, at oromac@sympatico.ca.

Rifle with "Joseph Manton Warranted" marked on lockplate.
The rifle appears to be what is termed a "drum and nipple" conversion of a flintlock. A pity, as it would be much more valuable in its original condition. Note that the angle of the nipple does not match well to the face of the hammer. The marking "Joseph Manton Warranted" does not, unfortunately, prove anything, as label falsification was rife before modern concepts of copyright were developed and enforced. I am sceptical about the origin of that lock (hence the recommendation above).

As for "Wheeler & Son", there are two entries in Stöckel:

Wheeler & Son, Waterville, Maine, USA, recorded 1877-83 (too late for a single-shot percussion pistol in the land of Colt, Remington etc)
and
Wheeler & Son, Birmingham, GB, 1814-41 and again 1828-43 (a more likely period for the pistol).
Look for a proof mark on the barrel! Is the barrel rifled? If so, most definitely not a duelling pistol. In the days when duelling was actually practised, the pistols were all smooth-bored. Rifling was "not cricket".

However, it was common for those with the necessary funds to purchase pistols intended for personal protection in pairs, for the very simple reason that the typical shooter has two hands. So the non-historical habit has grown up, encouraged by dealers and sellers, of calling all paired flintlock or percussion pistols "duelling pistols". In fact, you will find just about any pistol so labelled in the cause of attracting the buyer's attention! It's the same sort of nonsense as the habit of describing any and every muzzle loader as "with a possible Civil War connection".

Patrick

[drm2m]

Patrick,

I believe the Wheeler is Birmingham manufactured.
It is a smooth bore and not a duelling pistol.

I suspected that the Joseph Manton "Warranted" lock was purchased by the manufacturer of the rifle and installed on the piece he built.

I do not believe it was a converted flintlock.

Manton sold "Warranted" locks for this purpose.....I think?

David

[gew8805]

.............................................

Rifle with "Joseph Manton Warranted" marked on lockplate.
The rifle appears to be what is termed a "drum and nipple" conversion of a flintlock. A pity, as it would be much more valuable in its original condition. Note that the angle of the nipple does not match well to the face of the hammer. The marking "Joseph Manton Warranted" does not, unfortunately, prove anything, as label falsification was rife before modern concepts of copyright were developed and enforced. I am sceptical about the origin of that lock (hence the recommendation above).


Patrick

Patrick, some good points made on the shooting of original guns.

I'd like to offer my thoughts on the above mentioned rifle. Due to the configuration of the stock and the style of decoration, I have to say that stylistically the rifle dates to the post-1850 time period and was made as a percussion rifle, it was never a flintlock. The lock can easily date to the mid-percussion period , thus putting the date for the rifle slightly later, my guess would be 1860 - 1870. It was always a percussion lock and is original to the stock inlet. The so called drum and nipple conversion is the simplest way to not only convert a rifle but it is also the easiest way to percussion a new rifle so we find many rifles that were built that way. It has been carefully maintained over the years and the owner should be proud of it as has been suggested.

The hammer appears to be original to the lock, so it is possible that someone over the years unwisely removed the drum (for no good reason, there rarely is) and then, when replacing it, overtightened it throwing out of index. It has been fired many times in it's current position (maybe dry fired?) as the hammer nose is obviously well worn, making actual firing hazardous due to a lack of containment of possible cap fragments.

[wireless_wpn]

Patrick, some good points made on the shooting of original guns.

I'd like to offer my thoughts on the above mentioned rifle. Due to the configuration of the stock and the style of decoration, I have to say that stylistically the rifle dates to the post-1850 time period and was made as a percussion rifle, it was never a flintlock. The lock can easily date to the mid-percussion period , thus putting the date for the rifle slightly later, my guess would be 1860 - 1870. It was always a percussion lock and is original to the stock inlet. The so called drum and nipple conversion is the simplest way to not only convert a rifle but it is also the easiest way to percussion a new rifle so we find many rifles that were built that way. It has been carefully maintained over the years and the owner should be proud of it as has been suggested.

The hammer appears to be original to the lock, so it is possible that someone over the years unwisely removed the drum (for no good reason, there rarely is) and then, when replacing it, overtightened it throwing out of index. It has been fired many times in it's current position (maybe dry fired?) as the hammer nose is obviously well worn, making actual firing hazardous due to a lack of containment of possible cap fragments.

Sorry to replay so late, but now is as good as anytime.

First of all, yes, I have to agree with the above statement.
There are many rifles like this in Southern, Ontario Canada

Joseph Manton was a Gunsmith that was building guns in Toronto, Ontario Canada.
I do not have information on the exact years, but I have a source who will know.

You will see many of his creations threw out Ontario and up-state New York, U.S.A.
He would build to order.
Many of the Manton rifles in Ontario seem to fetch a premium price and not so much in places where he is not known.
There are Manton rifles shot weekly at our Black Powder nights at our local club here in Burlington, Ontario.

Not sure if he produced his own locks or had them stamped.
I presume they where stamped.

[Patrick Chadwick]

I wonder if we are thinking about the same Joseph Manton.
I was thinking of the famous London flintlock maker, 1766-1835. From 1822 -26 his sons worked with him, and the firm operated as "Manton and Sons". Joseph actually spent some time in prison for debt (1828), and the firm went bankrupt in 1829. Hence my wonder at a percussion lock marked "Joseph Manton warranted".

However, there was another Joseph Manton - in Montreal! Recorded from 1860-71 at 46 Great St. James, subsequently in Craig St. until 1894.

I humbly suggest that the Canadian Joseph Manton is a much more likely supplier of a percussion lock on a Canadian rifle.

(All info from "Stöckel", German edition of 1979, P.753)

Patrick

[drm2m]

Patrick,

Good question....I am sure I don't know.
This rifle was purchased in Montreal years ago ?????

David