Singapore Police Lithgow .22 dedicated L1A1

[mrclark303]

Cheers Peter, I've bashed through my Fal books and all my Lithgow information and can find no reference what so ever to any Lithgow factory .22 L1A1.

I'm starting to smell the whiff of something, but I'll hang fire and wait for Fal 'Guru' Kev Adams to pitch in on specific Singapore contract info.

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[mrclark303]

Starting to drill into this, the seller states

"The Heckler & Koch .22LR bolt kits were used as Heckler & Koch was owned at that time by R.S.A.F Enfield which was 100% owned by the British Government."

Let's then consider that the rifle was manufactured in 1968 and British Aerospace bought HK in 1991??????

Moving on, why has it got two SPF numbers, one on the receiver and one on the TMH?

I don't believe I've ever seen an SPF number on the receiver before either ??????....

Hmmm

[bigduke6]

Hmm, need to check my part kit L1A1’s John, as one of them has a SP TMH but am sure retains original serial number.

Must admit I can’t see any evidence on the upper of original designation being linished…….but out of curiosity I blew the dust off my conversion kit box, as Peter states:

Conversion kit 7.62mm millimetre rifle .22 inch calibre L12A1
Is on the inside label..

[desperatedan]

So the seller of Faz L1A1 and '75/'80 L42A1 fame pops up with something 'very rare' yet again

I wonder if the kit barrel liner is permanently fixed or removable in which case do I need a permission for just .22lr or both that and 7.62?

[mrclark303]

So the seller of Faz L1A1 and '75/'80 L42A1 fame pops up with something 'very rare' yet again

I wonder if the kit barrel liner is permanently fixed or removable in which case do I need a permission for just .22lr or both that and 7.62?

The jury is still out Kev, but the evidence is certainly pointing in one direction!

[bigduke6]

The jury is still out Kev, but the evidence is certainly pointing in one direction!

Not the direction I’d be going if I had £4k burning a hole in my pocket…..

[mrclark303]

My guess would be a .22 liner bonded into a 7.62mm barrel.

Judicious use of a Pantograph machine might possibly be involved, who knows....

Only Kev can give us chapter and verse regarding the apparent Lithgow.22 factory builds.
I've never heard of such a rifle in all my years of studying the breed and
I can find zero reference in Ian Skennertons 'SLR Australia's Fal' or for that matter, in my Collector Grade The Fal Rifle, the complete history.
So .....

[nzl1a1collector]

I've had a look at the photos, that there is of them.

I've compared the markings on the one shown in the original post with the markings of my SPF 6067 Rifle (7.62mm) Assembled in 1963 and looked at a number of other SPF rifles markings and ALL are 7.62mm rifles. The SPF number is a census number, they same why New Zealand originally applied the N/|\Z marking. Census numbers tend to be applied by the crate or rack and have nothing to do with the factory serial number for example if you look at the list below, the dates of manufacture are all over the place in comparison to the SPF number. Armourers have enough to do, without the headache of applying a census number, hence the general rough application of the hand stamped numbers........ sounds like a job for the apprentices.

SPF 473....... AD70 (7.62mm)
SPF 4111..... AD67 (7.62mm)
SPF 6067..... AD63 (7.62mm)
SPF 6093..... AD70 (7.62mm)
SPF 7264..... AD68 (7.62mm)
SPF 7675..... AD70 (7.62mm)
SPF 7751..... AD67 (7.62mm)
SPF 7784..... AD69 (7.62mm)

I've never come across an Australian Lithgow made .22 L12A1 Rifle, They didn't make any such thing.

if you look at the markings you can clearly see how Lithgow roll stamp their markings, they DON'T use Serif's on their '1', its just a 'l'. The 'F' doesn't match either.

As Peter pointed out there are instructions EMER/EMEI Instructions dealing with what to do with a rifle with a stuck L12A1 barrel. Its possible a workshop in Singapore altered some rifles for the SPF, but I would expect to see some form of marking from the workshops. The L12A1 didn't come arrive till about 1966/67, I can't see them being used by the SPF for a decade, a bit like New Zealand and Australia. Realistically they didn't see the kits until the late 70's and were restricted use. I can't see the SPF getting them earlier.

[mrclark303]

I've had a look at the photos, that there is of them.

I've compared the markings on the one shown in the original post with the markings of my SPF 6067 Rifle (7.62mm) Assembled in 1963 and looked at a number of other SPF rifles markings and ALL are 7.62mm rifles. The SPF number is a census number, they same why New Zealand originally applied the N/|\Z marking. Census numbers tend to be applied by the crate or rack and have nothing to do with the factory serial number for example if you look at the list below, the dates of manufacture are all over the place in comparison to the SPF number. Armourers have enough to do, without the headache of applying a census number, hence the general rough application of the hand stamped numbers........ sounds like a job for the apprentices.

SPF 473....... AD70 (7.62mm)
SPF 4111..... AD67 (7.62mm)
SPF 6067..... AD63 (7.62mm)
SPF 6093..... AD70 (7.62mm)
SPF 7264..... AD68 (7.62mm)
SPF 7675..... AD70 (7.62mm)
SPF 7751..... AD67 (7.62mm)
SPF 7784..... AD69 (7.62mm)

I've never come across an Australian Lithgow made .22 L12A1 Rifle, They didn't make any such thing.

if you look at the markings you can clearly see how Lithgow roll stamp their markings, they DON'T use Serif's on their '1', its just a 'l'. The 'F' doesn't match either.

As Peter pointed out there are instructions EMER/EMEI Instructions dealing with what to do with a rifle with a stuck L12A1 barrel. Its possible a workshop in Singapore altered some rifles for the SPF, but I would expect to see some form of marking from the workshops. The L12A1 didn't come arrive till about 1966/67, I can't see them being used by the SPF for a decade, a bit like New Zealand and Australia. Realistically they didn't see the kits until the late 70's and were restricted use. I can't see the SPF getting them earlier.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../yvMiqhC-1.jpg

Cheers Kev, the court has heard the evidence from the expert witness, the jury is back and the verdict is a unanimous ' Bullshit!

Someone take his pantograph machine away for god's sake!

[browningautorifle]

I wonder if we should save the example for future reference? Stolen from "Enfieldguns"