Winchester flip sight real or repro?

[Hooks]

Charlie has been breathing too much paint fumes. I learned all about painters when we recently remodeled our home. The painters complained because I didn’t use oil-based paint. Seems they like the smell, gives them a high. By the way, Charlie recommended I use something else so my painters are mad at him and not me.

[paroikoi]

Hi cafdfw, et al.,
You've asked for proof of my legitimacy. I'll try to provide it.

My entry into the M1 carbine world was about a year and a half ago, when I purchased my first M1 carbine. Believe it or not, it was a MINT condition (unissued) Standard Products, all original except for the flip sight which, somehow, somewhere, had been replaced with an adjustable sight. [The receiver had the slash stake marks for the flip sight as well as the punch stake marks for the adjustable sight.] I bought it from a much more serious gun collecting friend (not a very close one, though) for $1000 (again, believe it or not). My Standard Catalog of Military Firearms said it should be worth about $1900. It looked like museum quality to me, though, and, at my wife's prodding, it seemed like something too nice to shoot. It seemed a shame to shoot it, when a collector more serious than me would surely like it kept in that condition. I really only wanted a shooter, but with WWII historical significance. I am an amateur collector on a limited budget and do not own any guns I do not regularly shoot (hence why some have been on the chopping block lately).

So, I posted on at least a couple forums (CMP and the old Jouster.com forums) to ask people: was this gun really worth $1900 (that seemed high to me, considering my in-the-know friend sold it to me for $1000) and would it be criminal to shoot it. I quickly received multiple offers to purchase it or trade it for "shooter" carbines. My best offer was for two CMP white bag carbines (somewhat of my choosing) and $1500 cash. I settled on that. One of the carbines was the Winchester high-wood carbine I have now. The other carbine I parted with. For proof of at least some portions of this story, please see this CMP forum thread:

http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic...TOPIC_ID=47158

The Winchester carbine I got was very nice, with appropriate Winchester high wood, a virtually new Winchester barrel, and many Winchester parts. Being a WWII enthusiast, it was my desire to get it back into correct WWII configuration, but that would be a long term priority, not something I had the time or money to do soon.

As I said above, I have a limited gun collecting budget. A few months ago, as the ammo crisis (at least from my perspective) was in full swing, I decided that I had too many guns to feed and it was causing too much stress and wasting too much time (especially family time). So, I decided to sell off some guns. That resulted in some extra cash, and I recently decided to start trying to replace the incorrect parts on my Winchester carbine. You can see evidence of those purchases here:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=139395841
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=139554128
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=139446654
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=141446620
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=141735012
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=350252721334
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=110442216255

As you can see, I bought two Winchester flip sights, one of which I eventually sold. More on that later.

During my early "auction research" for parts, I saw plenty of people advertising repro flip sights. Being extremely gullible, evidently, I somehow took that as meaning that if a part wasn't listed as "repro", it was legit. Silly, I know, but the thought truly didn't enter my mind. Somewhere late in the process of buying these parts, I found what looked like a Type II Winchester mag catch listed on gunbroker by Riverbank Armory (under one of his names). I emailed him offline to ask if I could buy one offline (I don't recall why). He said yes. When I received it, it didn't seem quite kosher, so I started doing some googling on Riverbank Armory and came across some scary threads. By that point, I had bought my second flip sight (the one that started this thread). As previously stated, I had bought one at first, but it was in BAD shape. I bought the second thinking I'd sell the first (I did) and have less work to do with the second. The second one was paid for and on its way to me before I got educated that plenty of fake parts are advertised as being authentic. Hence my posting of this thread once I got the sight.

As additional evidence of my legitimacy, here is where I am selling the parts that came on my Winchester carbine but which I have replaced with what I believe to be legit parts:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=143007296
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=143007477
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=143007636
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=143008091

Finally, here are a few photos of my Winchester carbine:

http://207.98.189.235/win_carbine/

It is not fully assembled, as I haven't had time yet to actually install the parts I've bought. As you can see, the adjustable sight was NOT staked, which seems to scream out to me that it needs a flip sight instead. :-) I'm down to needing a flip sight, push safety, Type II barrel band, and buttplate, but I think I have a buttplate in the works.

Now that I have hopefully proven that I am a newbie collector and not a "humper", I would GREATLY appreciate offline guidance from you experts about how to tell if a flip sight is legit.

On a related note, the seller (s2million) of the flip sight I most recently bought (and with which I started this thread), insists quite vehemently that his sight was pulled from an authentic Winchester carbine and is the real deal. He says I cannot return it.

Thanks,
Josh

[painter777]

Josh,
I couldn't help but notice you were at least the 2nd buyer of that flip sight from s2million.
Here is the first buyer,
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=137435304
You'll notice feedback was left by the first buyer.........but the sight was re-listed, then you bought it,
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=141446620

Note that in the first listing....s2million shows the bottom of the sight in his pictures. In the re-listed auction, that you bought from......NO sign of any pictures of the bottom.
I guess it's possible that the seller really thought he had a legit USGI part.
But the 2nd listing IMHO had the pictures manipulated.

Just a thought here....but maybe that first buyer agreed to leave positive feedback to get his money back.

Also noticed that this same seller has bought from No Guts...No Glory
That's a red flag. Those 2 auctions are to old to look up.

And just to wrap this up.....look at the .U. sling he sold,
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=137435889

I'd love to hear from Mr. Ricca per this sling.

Hang in there...
We can be a nervous bunch....
Charlie-painter777

[3ky]

I'm a newby too. So far I havent been burned on my rebuild but I'm doing a very easy rebuild. My advice is ask the experts here berfore you buy. There are some good people on here that will help and know their stuff. Read all the post. I have and learned alot. When I first posted I never taken a carbine apart. Now I have one in alot of pieces..LOL Hopefully I get the dang thing back together..LOL
Michael

[dbarn]

Josh,

Thanks for the clarifying info. My offer still stands. Please PM your email address and I will forward pics of an original Winchester flip sight as installed by Winchester on 556307x. This carbine's receiver has the same olive green color as yours and the flip sight is staked with tiny chisel marks. Will forward pics when I'm off work this PM.

David

[cmbtinfantry]

Charlie tried to sell 'Frankenstock' to me too Rick, describing it as having some minor arsenal repairs that gave it 'Character'

(I think he's been been spending way too much time reading George's ads!)

To be fair and to give him a chance at revenge I'll put some pics of a really interesting carbine I've got up someday.

[paroikoi]

Josh,
I couldn't help but notice you were at least the 2nd buyer of that flip sight from s2million.
....
Charlie-painter777

Hi Charlie,
Thanks for that info. Yes, I had discovered that, too, while burning some time yesterday. More than that, the aperture (or whatever the flipping element is correctly called) has been reversed since the first buyer bought it and I bought it. Or at least it looks that way to me. That would seem to be another red flag. And, yes, I did notice he's bought from No Guts No Glory, whose parts seem questionable.

Any thoughts about what the reversed aperture tells us? Does it seem that way to you, too, i.e., that it was reversed between the two sales? The pin has definitely been removed and reinstalled at some point, as the circular "stakes" on the ends of the pins no longer line up with the circular marks on the sight base.

I don't follow the concern about the .U. sling. Is that one clearly a repro?

Thanks again,
Josh

[Harlan (Deceased)]

Hi Josh,

Sorry about the scrutiny. As you have found yourself the hard way there are many parts humpers (crooks) out there and we really don't want to give up details to make it even easier to fleece people. You found the 'king' of the humpers. (Don't feel bad - He cheated me on the very first carbine part I bought years ago and he will NOT return your money!)
You'll have to admit your posts were suspicious looking. He (your seller, George) has sneaked in to all the sites using different names. He sells under many different names too. PM Charlie for a list. That's one of the best ways not to get burned. Don't buy from known humpers.

Yes, the sling is fake. Carbine slings are a notoriously 'humped' part.
With the influx of so many new carbines and owners, the humpers are going after them like sharks.
(Feel free to PM or email me for info of things wrong with the sling, if you're still talking to me)

Best regards,
~ Harlan

[painter777]

Josh,
I was running late for work last night and just did a fast back ground search of that sellers dealings.

You're right....that flipper was on backwards for the first auction and switched around to the correct position on the 2nd (Your) auction.

Note that some Original Carbines have been documented with the flip sight installed backward.

With the muzzle pointing away, a flip sight is installed from the right to the left. The S marking tells you it goes in first, because that side of the base is narrower than the right side. The receivers dovetails narrow down on the left side.

Very nice looking carbine you have there. Thanks for sharing it with us. Very possible your rear sight was swapped out in the field......or by a private owner. My father hated both the flip sight and adj types. He was used to the more open sights found on rifles back home, in the day. He commented about many GI's he served with that trimmed the outer ears off the frt sights for better vision in lo-light conditions. He carried his .45 and liked it better than trying to hang on to a carbine while running heavy equipment.
here's a picture of him proudly showing off a made by Colt for the Argentines .45. He won this from a Australian playing cards. Heard that story a million times.


The Sling,
Look closely at how freshly stamped the .U. marking is.
I've never seen a .U. marked sling. There may be real ones out there.......but I wouldn't believe it unless I heard it from one of the Advance members of the Carbine Club.

Hooks/BB,
About the fumes.....
I'll admit I've been known to poke a hole in my mask every now and then but give advise on coatings with a clear head.
Bottom line...How did your finish come out?
Better yet, it will stay looking nice for a longer time now than if your painters had used oil. Oil was the king years ago...but slowly with the VOC and solids being pulled to keep the EPA happy, it's become less than desirable for interior use in the long run. With the newer Waterborne Acrylic lines you have the Microban technology that helps fight mold and mildew in the dried film. Biggest advantage is these lines will touch up, and not yellow with time.

Harlan and cmbtinfantry,
'Frankenstock'
Will come a live and will have a memory !!

Cheers
Charlie-painter777

[paroikoi]

... if you're still talking to me)

Best regards,
~ Harlan

Hi Harlan,
Yes, I'm still talking to you. I don't have enough experience with the humpers to have the basis for suspicion that you do. So, no, I cannot really get a good feel for whether my posts should have raised suspicion. That said, I don't fault you and harbor no ill feelings.

Josh