Condition of Milsurps you prefer ??

[arado]

I have always went after the best condition I could find and afford. Trying to estimate history from condition is useless. Most of the damage is caused by typical handling and storage of military logistics. Gary.

[Allred]

I like historic rifles in good, used condition, but they have to be shooters, for me. No safe queens or wall hangers. I like to get 'em out and bang away at long distance targets with the old bolt action battle rifles from the era of the World Wars!

[Aragorn243]

I'm a restorer because I have no interest in looking at a beat up, filthy firearm. All that shows me is a history of abuse. I enjoy working with them and turning an otherwise ugly rifle few would give a second glance at into something most can admire.

I clean them up, fix the broken things and find the various missing parts and accessories for them. If it had a bayonet, I find the bayonet. Slings are the only part I'll allow to be a reproduction as leather doesn't always hold up all that well.

Matching numbers are nice, but not a requirement, probably most of my milsurps have been re-arsenaled so they don't match anyway. Matching numbers and parts tend to be too valuable to alter or shoot for that matter so I don't have any interest in them.

I prefer rifles that have some history behind them, not an individual history but a history as a whole. My primary interest lies in bolt action rifles and most of the ones I currently own are from the WWI-WWII timeframe.

[RangeRover]

I agree that this is a great thread. It shows there's no "right way" to collect. Almost all of my milsurps fall into "worn" category - either by use, by time, or the combination of both. This is as much because they were, for the most part, more affordable than the shinier counterparts that showed up, but as well because if it's a 114-year old Lee Enfield that saw service with the Canadians during the Anglo-Boer conflict, I'd kind of like it to look like it has been around and used since 1896.

I also feel quite comfortable taking them out to the range and letting my teenage son and his friends handle and fire them to perhaps give them a sense of the real world versus the impressions they gain about armed conflict via video games. Their eyes get a bit wide when you stick a Pattern 1907 bayonet on the front of an SMLE.

Would I turn my nose up at a firearm that still had that "new firearm smell"? Not at all, if I could get it for a "shooter grade" price. As has been stated here, these were, and are, tools, and I believe they should be shot. The most pristine milsurp I own is the P-08 Luger my grandfather somehow managed to bring home to Canada after the Second War. In wonderful shape and all matching but, rightly or wrongly (depending on your views), it gets out the range almost as frequently as my contemporary 9mm.

To me, the bottom line is that I'm glad all of us here on Milsurps are focused on looking after these pieces of history, regardless of condition, to keep 'em around for future generations.

Now if only a few of you would spread your collections around a bit more among the rest of us.

[drm2m]

One shoe does not fit all feet.
Viva la difference.
Otherwise we would all be chasing the same stuff...for all the same reasons.

Personally I won't shoot my collectable pieces.

I don't think that a well used piece can tell you a "been there done that story".
Unless there is legitimate provenance explaining the guns history... it is an assumption that we collectors make as to its having "been there and done that"

Personally... I tend to collect based on decent condition...good markings...consistent patina...and historically correct pieces.

When I buy ....I really don't want to have to make excuses to the fellow I eventually sell it to regarding condition.
I guess I view the future investment value as being rather important.

I collect U.S. Civil war and WWII German, American with some Russian pieces.
I feel the same way about the Civil War stuff as I do about the WWII pieces.....relative to condition.

I am not a big believer in ..."if this gun could only talk to me and tell me its story".
It would be great if that was possible.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I only own one WWI piece that fits into the category of .....I wish I knew its story.

A unit marked LP08 Luger Artillery rig with what “I think” is a bullet hole through the holster….which looks like it grazed the stock.
I guess I would be curious to know how the fellow fared that carried this rig when this happened.

David









Matching magazine.

[Peter Laidler]

The ones I like and prefer to see are those honest to goodness rifles that look to me like they've just come out of the Company Armoury. Well used, but clean linseed oiled woodwork, clean serviceable bores, a bit weatherworn, some of the finish worn away where it's been carried hundreds of miles in sticky hands or between the knees in a lorry. And last but not least, numbered and matching but not necessarily original. Replacements bearing an old fore-end number barred out. I nearly forgot too, woodwork that is as old as you but been patched time and time again by caring, old and experience Armourers who have gauged it, repaired it and sent it back for even more front line service. Just as the Arms storeman hands it to me. That way I know that it's as it SHOULD be. No enthusiastic amateur has got at it, no bubba has tinkered with the whatsit or filed the thinggy short.......... you know what I mean - and when I fit the bayonet, it fits - properly!

That probably goes against the grain to most Forumers......... We didn't care about matching a replacement part to make sure it came from the same factory. We didn't bother about whether it didn't look new, with french polished woodwork. What WE cared about in a fanatical way was that it did what it was meant to do. Day in and day out. To me, I treated all my rifles just like a Norton Motorcycle or a beagle. It didn't have to look good but it did whatever I told it. Through sleet and snow and driving rain (anyone recognise a bit of Bob Dylan there......) I knew they'd finish the course. We learned a phrase that I've often heard repeated and it's this. Provided a soldiers kit is simple, tough, reliable and accurate, he won't ask you for anything else

[Patrick Chadwick]

Thank you Peter!

So would you (in the sentiment, not necessarily the wording) agree with the following, taken from the restorers' forum?

Don't let the word "patina" get you down!
My apologies to gandog56 for copying this picture from the thread "My Pet Peeve" on the general discussion forum, but it's all staying in the family! It is just so appropriate to illustrate the point I wish to make to help DaveN. But be warned, it also illustrates one of my pet peeves!

Attachment 17885

I would like all of you to imagine you are standing in front of this gentleman.

Now say, slowly and clearly after me:

"Sorry sarge, but I am not going to clean this rifle, it would damage the original patina"

The scenario lies somewhere between unbelievable and unimaginable. I am not quite sure what his reaction would be, but your life insurance might classify you as a suicide risk!

Let us assume he is, at heart, a humane person, and realises that he is confronted with a very difficult case. I imagine him explaining quite slowly and patiently that corrosion and dirt are not part of the original rifle, not "part of it's history", but the result of neglect and failure to maintain a soldier's most important item of equipment, and he would surely beseech you to bear that in mind as you spend the next days cleaning every rifle in the armory, lest you forget this lesson, which is that

CORROSION AND DIRT IS JUST THAT - CORROSION AND DIRT.

IT DESTROYS YOUR EQUIPMENT.

IT IS NOT SOMETHING TO BE PRESERVED.

[drm2m]

On page 2 of this thread “cafdfw” made a reference to Bruce Canfield…and his books.
For a number of years I have enjoyed reading a section on his website called “Canfield’s Corner,” it deals with subjects that I personally think are well worth reading for they that collect U.S. Martial Arms.

I think he adds a new subject every month or so.

Many of his articles deal with stuff that is relevant to subject of this thread.


Bruce N. Canfield - Gun Collector, Gun Collections, Author, Collector, and Authority on post-Civil War U.S. Military Weapons

Scroll back to find his earlier articles if you are interested.

Bruce was very helpful to me regarding the purchase of an early M1A1 carbine as well as providing info on a WWII M1897 trench gun that I own.

I really appreciated his insight and help.

David

12-42 barrel dated M1A1 carbine.






Stock markings.








One of the reasons I requested Bruce Canfield's help with the purchase of the 1942 dated
M1A1 carbine was because of the M1911A1 1942 manufactured Colt that I already owned.
Serial number 785826, shipped from Colt to the Springfield Armoury on June 25th 1942.

I guess at that time I got "possessed" with the “collecting bug".....for 1942 U.S. manufactured pieces???




Inspectors acceptance stamp “W.B.” (Waldemar Broberg Col. US Army) in a box on left frame below the slide stop.





Three commercial magazines marked “Colt 45 Auto” that came with this pistol which I have been told were diverted to the military contract from Colt.

[mrnemo]

Very interesting thread to say the least,I've personally had milsurp guns that varied in condition from near new to "dragged through the war by it sling" I've also done some "de bubbaizing over the years, so overall I run down the middle,go for the best you can get on a budget, (I'm also a gear hound,just gotta have a bayonet ya know)

[1911crazy]

To me its any condition if i can't find one or its rare. But the way things happen to me is i will pick up a lesser condition rifle and soon after an excellent condition one comes along. Its happened many times now. I ended up with having two collections, one stays in the safe(unissued/excellent ones) and the others i shoot and enjoy. CZY