1921 Lithgow No. 1 Mk III Unfired

[A square 10]

i have a question .... what is it about those words "unfired rifle" that gets some collectors all giddy and scrambles the thinking part of the brain of those new to 'military surplus' rifle collecting ?

[muffett.2008]

Most of them are still searching for the Holy Graile, to me that would be a 1912 C marked Lithgow.

[Son]

To those who understand the history of these rifles, "unfired" is a huge call. All rifles are proofed during assembly which involves firing an overloaded round.
With regard to MkIII rifles, this quote comes from "Outline of Manufacture and Inspection of the Service Rifle" from the 1909 Textbook of Small Arms.... "All rifles are fired at 100 feet and 10 percent are also fired at 600 yards, any which give doubtful results at the shorter range being included among those being tested at the longer." it goes on to describe the laying of t5he rifle in an Enfield rest and using a telescope for sighting. Test shots are fired and the fore sight blade adjusted laterally or replaced lower or higher as required. 5 rounds are then fired for the group test. The 600yard test involves ten rounds with 9 being inside a 2 foot circle.
Already we have a minimum of about ten rounds per rifle, twenty for rifles also tested at the longer range.

So... how do we determine if a rifle is unfired? Stick some copper solvent in the bore and see if it pulls blue. Yes, even an "unfired" rifle will most likely pull blue, so how do you tell if it had not been fired since it left the factory? Simple answer... you can't. Unless you know the person who bought it when it was sold out of service, and he can prove it was unissued from the factory.

The term "unfired" has been applied too freely. Looking at the logic it is very unlikely that it can be proven, but all too often it is believed by a buyer who is paying a premium for something that cannot be validated...

[Peter Laidler]

Never have truer words been spoken Son. If only everyone would take this on board. Every Lee Enfield collector ought to be made to learn your thread by rote!

Only extremely experienced in-inspectors, barrel viewers/examiners can decide and guess what.......... Even they only comment in what we call 'quarters of life'

[Surpmil]

The butt has been on the rifle from its manufacture in 1921. Very often when forwoods were replaced, the original butts were retained.

Also I think there is no doubt the metal has been refinished.

Overall it looks a very legitimate rifle repaired in 5/44

I see your point about the butt serial number.

[A square 10]

muffett , think we discussed this once before , hope you find that holy grail , i still want a mkVI , and as long as im dreaming a nice HAK , and a no6 to go with it , that's my list and im sticking to it ,

son & peter , those were my points exactly , i do appreciate a collector going for the best quality they can find , its everyone's goal to have excellent , desirable and valuable pieces ,
i kinda like the ones with history more , they are so much more interesting , since the days of the "OLD SITE" to me the most enjoyable threads have been those covering markings as well as oddities , and what we can decipher from them , as well as the interesting personal input of the members regarding the discussed items ,

not that this was not both fun reading and educational , it just crossed my mind to ask about that "unfired" qualification so many spend so much on

[Homer]

Yep, I think "unfired" is over rated.

muffett , think we discussed this once before , hope you find that holy grail , i still want a mkVI , and as long as im dreaming a nice HAK , and a no6 to go with it , that's my list and im sticking to it ,

son & peter , those were my points exactly , i do appreciate a collector going for the best quality they can find , its everyone's goal to have excellent , desirable and valuable pieces ,
i kinda like the ones with history more , they are so much more interesting , since the days of the "OLD SITE" to me the most enjoyable threads have been those covering markings as well as oddities , and what we can decipher from them , as well as the interesting personal input of the members regarding the discussed items ,

not that this was not both fun reading and educational , it just crossed my mind to ask about that "unfired" qualification so many spend so much on

[Bindi2]

I have some Lithgows that are as close to unfired as you can get but they have been proofed greased and stored. They are all XPs and S&Ls the rest have been fired most an awful lot others not so much. One sniper has a Q mark to it dont know all the British No1 Mk3s are well used. Two No4 Mk2s are as close as you can get to NEW RIFLE STATUS. My thoughts are any thing on issue has been fired most alot. There is no such beast as an unfired pre 1918 No1 Mk3 or Mk3* British/Lithgow made they just dont exist. I also doubt that there is such a beast from 1919 to 1945 British even british made No4 Mk1s will have been used. No4 Mk1*s maybe different. There maybe some late Lithgows unissued that did not go to the rifle clubs yet to see one

[muffett.2008]

Anything that went near a Rifle Club, would have seen some serious use..........and several barrels.

[Beerhunter]

So why has the 07 pattern bayonet followed this rifle like a lost puppy as there are so many out there that are mis-matched to the rifle they may be attached to,

An interesting point. In the UK (I can't speak for Australia) bayonets are issued separately and so a bayonet numbered to the rifle simply would not happen. (Yes I know about those No.4 Mk.2s but they are the exception to the rule.)