BLO or oiled wood

[Parashooter]

BLO doesn't give a shiney finish. The classic BLO finish is flat. If it's shiney, something else has been put on over it.

"...'oiled chambers'..." No such thing. Chambers are never left oiled when shooting any firearm with any ammo.

The classic "BLO" finish is flat because it was applied by people who knew how to do it and when to stop. As applied by most amateurs today, it's distressingly shiny - without the addition of anything other than too much "BLO" allowed to dry on the surface.

Chambers (and bores) are frequently left oiled by shooters who neglect to remove the oil before firing - and combatants who don't have the leisure to do so. A few small arms require oiled chambers and/or cartridges.



(If spelling counts, you might want to look up shiny.)

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Parashooter]

The AG42 reference is in response to Sunray's assertion that, "Chambers are never left oiled when shooting any firearm with any ammo."

"Never" and "any" cover a lot of territory - sometimes more than may be justified by verifiable information.

[Edward Horton]

Thank you parashooter for bringing a Swedish semiauto into this posting, I was awarded a warning and three points by a moderator for my “outrageous” reply with a Springfield M1A, an Enfield and warnings from reloading manuals about oil and grease in your chambers.

Something smells bad here and I wasn’t the one who brought the “greasy” subject up but I also don’t see three points added to your name Parashooter, Sunrays or RJW NZ.

Could it be the moderator has an ax to grind or maybe he just doesn’t understand oil and excessive bolt thrust and my reply is more incorrect than the other comments made here..

[Parashooter]

I suspect that by now the moderators here understand a fair bit about lube and bolt thrust. They probably even agree with your aversion to the idea of lubed cases - but they're also human and it may seem to them we're "beating a dead horse" here by re-posting the same stuff over and over again.

I tried opening a new thread on the subject, with a report on my latest little test case - but that one quickly degenerated into a transatlantic slugfest about military history. Yikes!

It's probably time to give the whole subject a long rest. Folks are probably tired of seeing what we've all repeated too often.

[Danhar1960]

we're "beating a dead horse" here by re-posting the same stuff over and over again.

It's probably time to give the whole subject a long rest. Folks are probably tired of seeing what we've all repeated too often.

This poor bloke asked about "BLO or oiled wood "and gets his thread hijacked. Same names, same crap. Just a different forum. What a shame.

Danny

[Big Ball Bag]

If I may get a question in before the end of this oiled chamber drama.

At page 94 of Reyolds Lee Enfield Rifle, and I copy exactly......


.......the necessary force varied from 4 to 4-3/4 tons per square inch with bullets lubricated in the Service manner, and from 5-3/4 to 7-3/4 tons when not lubricated. (Note: Service manner means lightly oiled) .......end quote


Does this mean cartridges were lightly oiled in service?

Does the reduced bore friction that this paragraph refers to means lightly oiled ammunition is easier/less wearing on the bore than dry.

The book can be downloaded from one of the stickys here if anyone wants to read the whole lot.

[Edward Horton]

Big Ball Bag

First off you have the Reynolds book to read because I donated it and 90% of all the new Enfield material in Badgers reference library and I would like to make this point very clear, Badger asked if he could use my material for download.

The moderator who wrote me up in this thread did not ask if he could display my material at his website and we had a heated “discussion” about it and his opinion and decision to write me up here is very questionable and smells of revenge.

As to your question about Reynolds statement:

4 to 4-3/4 tons per square inch with bullets lubricated in the Service manner, and from 5-3/4 to 7-3/4 tons when not lubricated.

This passage means exactly that, IF the BULLETS were lubricated the pressures were lower, the cases were NOT lubricated. This is why I put the warnings in my post, lubricating the case causes excess bolt thrust which *damages your firearms.

*DO NOT lubricate the chamber or the cartridge case when firing commercially loaded or Military surplus ammunition and reloaded ammunition that has been full length resized. These three types of ammunition if the case or chamber is lubricated will not grip the chamber walls and the case will slam into the bolt face with over twice the force the firearm was designed to receive and damage the firearm.

Also please note that military rifles have MORE or LONGER headspace than commercial rifles and a lubricated case has twice the distance to build up speed before slamming into the bolt face and do even MORE damage to your Enfield Rifle.

There is a very good reason why the ammunition manufactures, firearms manufactures and the reloading manuals tell you NOT to grease or oil your chamber and ammunition because of the excess bolt thrust and it is NOT up to ANY individual on the internet to tell you to ignore these warnings.

This excess bolt thrust is very easy to visualize, just think of driving a metal stake into the ground and think about how the top of the stake mushrooms and flattens out every time you hit the top of the stake. Anyone who tells you greasing or oiling the case does not hurt anything needs to hit their fingers a few times when hammering nails and "bolt thrust" will have more meaning.





The following was written in 1946 about the Enfield rifle and excess bolt thrust, it was true in 1946 and it is true to this day.

[Parashooter]

While it's certainly true that a lubricated case or chamber may produce some increased bolt thrust, my friend Ed may be mistaken about the mechanics involved when he says a lubed case ". . . will slam into the bolt face with over twice the force the firearm was designed to receive . . ."



In actual practice when we have some cartridge end-play, a lubed case moves back against the bolt face at relatively low speed and pressure, since the major impediment to doing so is friction of primer in pocket. As most handloaders know, it normally doesn't take much force to seat a primer. Think about it.

This effect is easy to demonstrate by firing some low-pressure loads that have a bit of end-play when chambered. If case and chamber are dry, the primer will protrude after firing - but if some effective lube is present, this same mild load will re-seat the primer and leave it flush with the case head. Because this kind of low pressure happens very early in the powder burn with a full charge, it's probably erroneous to think of the lubed case as slamming back against the bolt face with significant force.

It's more likely that the reason for greater thrust with lubed cases is that dry cases allow some of the energy from the powder to be expended in stretching brass ahead of the web. Any energy spent stretching brass doesn't get passed to the bolt face (or the bullet, since this is one of those Newtonian equal-opposite deals).

It would be easy to assemble a collection of dire warnings arising from beliefs that didn't turn out to be quite accurate, perhaps starting with "If you sail too far, you'll fall off the edge of the Earth." From what I've observed personally, the many familiar warnings about the extreme dangers of lubed cases or chambers may be in the same category. Still, most of us are more cautious than Chris Columbus and prefer the security of safe harbor to sailing uncharted seas.

The only apparent advantage of lubed cases in Lee-Enfields is significantly increased case life. Since cases are still reasonably cheap and the signs of incipient failure fairly obvious, only those somehow compelled to extract maximum possible life from each case are likely to experience enough benefit from lubricating them to justify the possibility of increased wear on bolt and receiver.

[Edward Horton]

There is nothing inaccurate about what I have said about bolt thrust Parashooter, when you recommended lubing cases in your “Headspace 101” YOU did NOT list any loads and at what pressures were safe to shoot lubed cases. (Do you even know what pressure is safe?) YOU also removed it from your Headspace 101 and added the coiled nylon around the rim trick in lieu of oiled ammunition.

You can’t have it both ways Parashooter you have absolutely nothing to back up your claims that it is a safe practice or that it is approved by any current firearms manufacture or reloading manual.

You did NOT warn anyone to NEVER shoot fully loaded factory, military or reloaded ammunition in ANY firearm with a lubed or oil chamber.

In “Cases and Enfields and lube - Oh my!” YOU did NOT tell anyone the reason no additional bolt thrust was delivered to the bolt face was because the cases were head spacing on the shoulder and the rear of the case was in firm contact with the bolt face.

We BOTH have neglected the fact that NO ONE complains about bolt thrust on fire formed cases that are neck sized only and the rear of the case is also touching the bolt face.

The warnings in the manuals are real and I damaged a rifle by lubing cases and I no longer do it, and I was told NOT to do it by Remington Arms Company.

Below is a protective cup it represents the bolt face of a rifle with a dry and oil free chamber.



Below is a Golf club driver, it represents bolt thrust and an oily chamber.



Now how many of you people are going to let me swing the driver as hard as I can and hit you in the groin, this represents shooting fully loaded ammunition in an oily chamber and excessive bolt thrust.

Again one more time, excessive bolt thrust from an oiled or greasy chamber.



And bolt thrust from a clean dry chamber.



NO one has the right to tell you to ignore safety warnings about oil in the chamber, just like no one should convince you to take a shot to the groin just for the fun of it. If you shoot oiled ammunition in any firearm YOU are half nuts.

[villiers]

"If you sail too far, you'll fall off the edge of the Earth."

This is, of course true! It happened to Eric the Red, Christopher Columbus and the Pilgrim Fathers. I don´t see why Enfields should be made to suffer the same fate. Please send `em all home where they´ll be appreciated.