Essay on British army new sniper rifle ....

[Peter Laidler]

There's something else I forgot to mention too

And that is never mention the word FN FAL or SLR or L1A1 or even worse, L2A1 in the same breath as sniper rifles. It just reminds me of those who speak of Bren guns as 'sniper accurate...........'

Information

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[arado]

FAL sniper? NO. But in a mixed terrain fluid firefight I prefer my STG58 over any other individual weapon. My substitute standard is the Zastava counter sniper M76 due to the 8mm Mauser chambering. I am in no army NOW . so the choice is mine. Gary

[hockeybuff]

Ngib:
Please don't take our comments too negatively. You are talking to a bunch of people with opinions and knowledge (?). But it is also a technical question you've posed.
If you have some follow up questions, please ask. You'll get some different opinions but hopefully they can help you....

[hockeybuff]

A very interesting thread – a question/comment or two from one with no expertise in sniping – so the following is not intended as ‘knocking’:-

1. Was/is ‘intelligence and gathering information’ a secondary role for snipers – I would have thought it of equal importance in the overall picture.
2. Given the differing situations faced by police marksmen (records of actual use!) and forces snipers, would it be reasonable to opine that police needs are very much less demanding than those of forces.
3. Designing a sniper rifle to cope with the differing requirements of Ypres/Normandy/Aden/Korea/Belfast/Kosovo/Iraq/Afghanistan/future! is always going to be a compromise of sorts.
4. Does a well-designed semi-auto exceed the accuracy of a well-designed bolt-action rifle?
5. I can see the advantages of a semi-auto at closer ranges (say up to 3-500 yds) – but less convinced for 1000yds.
6. I know nothing of the much-reviled SA80 but was told last week by a non-combatant user that the latest version was (at last) a good weapon?
7. And finally presumably there are statistics for historically effective sniper distances/situations etc. Are we designing a single shot 1000yd instrument to deal with 95/300yd opportunities and 5/1000yd chances?

Regards
John


John-- I wanted to answer some of your questions so......


John and Ngib....
As I and Peter point out the needs of Military vs Police are quite different. While I was in the US Army, I had no real experience with them. The police though, I feel I can maybe? hopefully? give you some insight to. My 0.02$ is based on the 15yrs I've worked on a mid to large US Police Department. Our SWAT team deploys, on average, 2-3 times a week and "uses deadly force" maybe 1-2 a year. I've trained with them and attended several police sniper courses. Because of my training, when our units work together, I end up working with them. (Mainly because I'd like to end up there...)
So for the police:
1. That is easily 90% of what they do. ie. A person is barricaded in a house. They will set up around it (relatively near- across the street say) and use their optics to look in and monitor the suspect. But not just the suspect, they will also look at the interior of the house for a layout or doors/obstacles etc.
2.It depends on what you mean by demanding. There is no doubt the distance is much shorter. As I said the average in the US is 77 yards and watching the deployments confirm that closeness. The demand for a 100% immediate incapacitation is not. If the sniper is used, by definition, he is shooting to end the immediate threat of the suspect using deadly force against another. That means the shot must end the situation and wounding or missing the suspect won't do that. There are too many examples of wounded suspects then harming victims or continuing to fight.
3. Valid point, more for the military. BTW- our standard rifle is the Remington 700 in 308 firing the Federal Gold Medal 168gr cartridge. That is what most PD's use.
4.and 5. I would say no. Some may get comparable but not better and you get back into the argument raised in 3. You can think of situation where one might be more useful than the other but the semi's certainly don't exceed the bolts in accuracy. IMHO.
6-7. Back to the military.

Hope this helps......

[jmoore]

Ngib, a bit of feedback would be nice. Feel free to jump in! We are, some of us, a bit "crusty", but are willing to help. A bit of harshness now may be best for your end goal.

[Ngib]

Ngib, a bit of feedback would be nice. Feel free to jump in! We are, some of us, a bit "crusty", but are willing to help. A bit of harshness now may be best for your end goal.

Sorry guys, I have been away for a few weeks. I have got to admit the knowledge level on this sight is outstanding and excedes anything I know.

The reason I wrote the essey was I was asked to comment.

I had an Enfield No.4 Mk1 (T) back in the sixties and I don’t have a clue what the stamps were for. One of my claims to fame is I was the last British soldier to be decorated for an action using this weapon. (Also possible the first with the L42) (In the falklands I carried one of the 9mm welrods the last op it was used on; another claim to fame)

The last time the 303 rifle was used was in Aden during that last days of the withdrawal. We had a number of contacts mainly in the Crater and Ma’alla areas.

This was either with FLOSSY or the NLF. My last sniper operation out there was an OP on the Aden end of the causeway. The general was to hand over to the opposition In the middle of the night and we were cover. Nothing happened and we moved back to RAF Khormasksar where we hung around for a couple of day before getting the last plane.

For any history buffs contrary to popular belief the last plane out was not a VC10 it was an Argosy. This took us to Muharraq in Bahrain. I used to carry my 303 ammo in an Arab bandoleer and we got on the plane fully bombed up.

When we got off in Bahrain we were met by the ordnance guys who slung our Enfield’s in a pile along with any SLR’s or Sterling’s what were deemed not worth keeping. Also the 303 ammo plus my prized Arab bandoleer with the rifle were all sea dumped.

Our uniforms were burnt and we got a free pair of jeans and a heavy duty pullover. The old brown type; also a bottle of whiskey a leave pass and train ticket to the nearest station to what was down as your home address. That was the last time I saw a 303. I did get to keep the old blue training pamphlet(dated 57) as the weapon was to be replaced. Latter we did trails with the replacements; the best was a P14 with a Shultz Larsson barrel. We got the worst.

Now for a question a few years later I got a letter from the adjutant of the Selous Scouts. One of the snipers a guy called Clive Mason had transferred to the Rhodesian army. The letter explained he went out in a blaze of glory with his 303 TS. We could say Clive was the last. As for Captain Peter Mason never heard of him, never heard of Baker Team and doubt if it existed. So who is this guy?

Ok so Peter L will probably find some flaw in my memory but he might remember one of the first guys from the small arms gang to pick our brains. He was QSMI (Doc) Brian Halliday I heard he passed away a few weeks ago. Brian was one of the first post Aden sniper instructor and he served with us as the Small Arms QSMI in the 70s/80s

I think Brian might have been in Oman in the 70's getting operational experience during another stint where we had L42's.

[villiers]

I also think it´s time to remember that he´s showing interest in a subject that we all spend time in ventilating. And some of our own postings are not always all that clever. `Twas quite a long text and quite some effort must have gone into it. So I´d personally be quite interested in reading a re-worked version into which some of the ideas posted here have been included.

[arado]

Villiers. Are you perchance related to Norton as in "Norton Villiers? Love my Commando 750. Whoops, wrong board.. Gary

[villiers]

Villiers. Are you perchance related to Norton as in "Norton Villiers? Love my Commando 750. Whoops, wrong board.. Gary

There´s a rumour in the family that there might be some connection to the makers of that abominable two smoke, so it might just be genetics that I´m a dedicated two wheel addict .... CCM 644 Sumo.

[trooper554877]

The aussie Army along with the brits have gone to the 338 because the AW 50 is too f....g heavy to carry long distances on a patrol or stalk. The aussies have gone to a Blazer 3 in 338 Lapua mag because it can be easily somewhat resently be carried for a long distance on foot if required. It also gives them that 1000+ yardage reach out and touch someone kinda feeling. In all the sniper training i came across they where never trained to rattle of 50 rds in a firefight. Thats the number 2's job with the M4 or SR25 or whatever the fella desires. the SR25 is the 7.62 choice at the moment with the SR98 as well.

So to say that we grab grandads boyes out of the armoury is purely whimsical thinking and not a understanding of what a sniper is trained to do.
Cheers
NED