Ishapore 2A1 headspace gauge/ Measurement

[pcaru1]

.015 or .025 over is still over, so does that mean don't shoot this thing? If I do will the whole thing go boom in my face or will the brass just be scrap? I really enjoyed learning something from all you experts.

[Peter Laidler]

Oooooops if I said 1.6238 low but I meant 1.328 low. I wonder where that Envoy CHS tolerance came from Thunderbox. Can you show me as a matter of interest. I ask because given a .003" tolerance, it could be that while a No1 bolthead could give you a LOW CHS, a No2 could give you a HIGH - meaning that you might NEVER get CHS. I know it's only theoretical (or is it.......?) but food for thought.

If someone is suggesting that, say, the US spec NO-GO gauge is listed as 1.645, then send it to me and I will calibrate it and tell you EXACTLY what this gauge equates to in UK Military terms. It might be that the SAAMI or Forster spec is measured from a different diameter around the neck. Can't say fairer than that can I?

I don't agree that because something looks perfect that it IS perfect Thunderbox because they're clearly not in mint condition with CHS apparently hovering around the 1.635" area. I only say that as a good enough reason for the canny Indian Forces to dispose of them. On a 'same meat, different gravy' thread, how many owners of supposedly described as mint ex UK MIlitary L1A1's were caught with 'as new' and 'factory-mint' L1A1's found out later that they'd been sold off because the body locking lug at the rear of the body was worn out and you'd NEVER lock up the body and trigger mechanism properly. Don't laugh, I've SEEN them with my own eyes. They looked perfect but when I looked over them with an Armourers eye, guess what I found....................................

[Parashooter]

If you're a handloader and want to shoot this rifle without fixing its generous headspace, it's easy enough to treat is as a "wildcat" and custom-form cases to fit. The .022" surplus headspace isn't enough to worry about exposing the case beyond the solid web (which would be very unwise). You can form cases from .30/06 or any of several Mauser types, backing off the sizer so a sized and trimmed case chambers with a touch of resistance in the last few degrees of bolt rotation. After the first firing, be sure to set the sizer to produce the same kind of slight resistance (indicating zero cartridge end-play) - or stick to neck sizing.

As for firing it with factory ammunition, you'll be stretching each case some .025" or more (depending on cartridge head-shoulder dimensions). This is about as far as we can expect high-quality .308 Win. or 7.62 NATO brass to stretch without separating. Anything less than top-grade brass is likely to chop. This normally isn't a disaster, since the short cup remaining does a fair job of sealing the chamber - but you can expect a little gas and maybe some solid particles. Then you may have to dig out your handy "broken shell extractor" to get the front part of the case out of the chamber. Overall, not an experience you'd want to have very often.

[Steve H. in N.Y.]

Pcaru1, I think the "5" on your bolt head is part of an inspection stamp and not a size marking. What about fitting a longer head?

[Peter Laidler]

Someone's just asked me how come I'm so sure about the Indian rifle CHS spec. I have to say that I'm NOT sure. It's just that I question why every other bolt asction 7.62mm Enfield is between these two specs, why wouldn't the Indian rifle be the same.

The same answer applies regarding the question as to why they all seem to close over the 1.635 no-go gauge. Once again, I'm just using my old Armourers 'bleedin obvious' assumption that these have oversize CHS with worn bodies and were disposed of as a result.

If anyone wants an unknown 7.62mm CHS gauge calibrated, then just ask and I'll do it. But the lcalibrated length/answer will be to the UK MoD standard

[pcaru1]

I am not questioning anyone's expertise, for most here have much more knowledge than myself, and I have seen some great info be posted. But one thing I would like to know is if India released these rifles because they are all worn out, BER, or similar, why do quite a few have great bores and muzzles? This one I have has both. Mirror brite bore and gauges "0" at the muzzle. Again not to doubt anyone but curious as why other guns that would fail this bad when measuring HS would show other signs of heavy use/abuse like severe barrel wear or bad muzzles?

Would a larger bolt head like steve H. suggested work? If so, do all Enfield bolt heads swap with each other? which one to use? If not, can barrels still be had to make this gun a shooter? I did not pay a lot for this gun so a re-barrel would be economically feasable.

[Alan de Enfield]

PCARU - It may have had a new barrel at some time (hence the good chamber & muzzle).
The headspace will be increased if the locking lugs have worn - it could be that the 'hardening' has worn thru' and every round / recoil is making it worse.

[Brian Dick]

I've lost count of how many RFI 2A and 2A1 rifles I've had through my shop for fitting of long bolt heads. I'd say 90% of them regardless of condition are all out of specification. I've always fitted new, long bolt heads and adjusted them to L42A1 specification which is tight as a tick. I didn't use an SAAMI Field gauge because I know that the 7.62 NATO round is stressing the receiver to the maximum of it's capability and tighter is obviously better. We've all read before about the metallurgy and the mythology of the receivers being manufactured from higher quality steel. When properly tested, the mettalurgy was found to be exactly the same as WW1 production SMLE receivers! Remember too that the 2A and 2A1 were never intended to be front line combat rifles. Positive extraction and ejection from the magazine is modest at best and they were mostly issued to frontier territorial and police forces not the regular Indian Army. I like to refer to them as "Barney Fife" rifles. "Here's your rifle Sahib. Here's your bullet. Please put it in your pocket until you really, really need it".

[Thunderbox]

I've lost count of how many RFI 2A and 2A1 rifles I've had through my shop for fitting of long bolt heads. I'd say 90% of them regardless of condition are all out of specification.

Isn't that most likely an indication that we are assuming the wrong specification for these rifles in the first place?

If you fit longer boltheads, and then nothing much happens after further usage - then what is supposed to have happened to them to make the go "out of specification" in the first place. To me, the circumstantial evidence is that these rifles were built with a generous headspace specification, in line with their intended role as cheap, low-usage Police rifles.

[Peter Laidler]

Generous headspace spec .......as cheap, low usage Police rifles.............. Like the Enforcer. Call me a sceptic Thunderbox but...........

I'll tell you all what I'll do first thing next week. I'll make a written request to the Indian Army Liaison Officer to see if he can find out for us. Wait out!

It's interesting to recall that the Indian Army were the first to place a firm order for 60,000 7.62mm L8 rifles in 1965. The order was cancelled due to a spot of bother with a neighbour along her western border. And guess what the CHS spec for these rifles was? You've got it in one!