No4 mk2 target rifle

[ssj]

8><--------

I just feel that however well thought out (or badly thought out, depending on your point of view of course.....) and well meaning some of the so called 'tuners' or 'accurisers' were/are, they didn't have the inside knowledge that the original designers had. And that includes the all important harmonics of that hollow tube we call the barrel. Just my view and opinion of course.

I agree, many of the people I have talked to were retired builders, plumbers, electricians etc, all good with hand tools, and veyr good shots so any mod they made tended to be good quality. However what they were not was engineers. Now that doesnt mean they didnt eak out better accuracy here and there and in NZ alone there was a huge number of ppl tweaking it seems. But it was trial and error I think and well there is no way now I can see to determine which of the "tricks" worked and which didnt when you look at highly modded guns 60 years on. ie which of say 5 was good and if any one of those was actually bad.

So I am going to start with a good known gun and a series of fore ends and play by myself one mod at a time, starting with an as-issued and working on it until I understand how this damn thing works, because it is complex. Then I'll try the mods out.

---------- Post added at 07:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:45 AM ----------

"I remember reading these reports"

and of course you have the huge advantage over say me at least, having the access to read everyone elses mistakes.

bye the way did anyone try and metal bed / insert inside the std stock?

[Peter Laidler]

And of course when we 'range trested for accuracy' we'd already been on the indoor Armourers test range using the heavy duty Enfield rest that would eliminate all errors. So what you were testing was the rifle!

I used to take my son Robert into work occasionally on a Saturday morning and walk over to the main Armourers shop, especially if they were range testing indoors. It's great fun range testing loads of rifles and especially GPMG's when you're 14. Favourite when you are 14 is the L2A3 SMG that has to be fired manually across a table but single shot only. But very often his would let go a few short bursts - which we blamed on the ammunition of course

[Bruce_in_Oz]

Then there are the Finnish snipers based on vintage Nagant actions.

These are "technically" in the unusual caliber of 7.62 x 53; so designated because the ammo is loaded with a .308" diameter bullet and fired through a .308" groove barrel.

These critters are equipped with a very stylish one-piece stock that looks like many other "deep-bellied" stocks as seen on expensive European target rifles..

The BIG thing is that the bedding is ENTIRELY "barrel-centric".

There is a substantial parallel section on the barrel, just forward of the reinforce. Around this is fitted a sleeve that in turn is bolted through the bedding block in the stock by two rather substantial screws, one at each end of the sleeve.

The action AND the barrel effectively "float".

After-market "Gucci" triggers are fitted in place of the 19th Century original and a neat bipod adorns the front of the stock.

Apparently they shoot VERY well, especially with the nice optics clamped into a new design mounting system.

Now, given the demands of the two-piece stocking system of the Lee Enfield, we cannot follow directly in Mr. Valmet et al's tracks, especially with a "light" barrel. However, if one were being a little "creative" with a HEAVY barrel, it would be interesting, if a little expensive, to see what would happen.

You could even follow the Finns and use a .308" / 1:10" barrel and use some of the many .308 size "match" bullets out there.

Probably not going to sneak in under "standard" rifle specifications/"rules".

[brnom2]

did anyone try and metal bed / insert inside the std stock?

I have a Savage No4 Mk1* that has a metal bedding block about 20cm forward of the knox - it appears very crudely done, and is in reality a piece of heavy gauge sheet tin from looks of it. But I cant comment on its effect as the rest of the system is kaput - draws broken and stock cracked. Im going to attempt to restock with spare savage forend I have, once work commitments allows the time. Will try to set up as orig military bedding, following the forum articles and the numerous threads on this subject. Its a funny thing, this learning business, having come from family of 50'sand 60's target shooters I only knew about the various "tweaked" styles of set up until I started to read various books and found this forum - all I had a reference prior was my 2 x Matby's (which incidentally are ex target rifles and have had various treatments done - one in Aust and one a Fulton's - both shoot better than I can so they stay as they are)

[ssj]

Having read and talked to a few ppl, making the area around the main screw more rigid might/can substantially improves accuracy. So I have a spare SA made replacement contract fore end that is a crap colour and damaged so Im going to try an aluminium plate/bed in it.

First thing though I have put a 10mm carbon fibre archery arrow epoxy bedded down the fore end to stiffen it for the target sling, this is also supposed to improve things for target work. I want to see how that does first.

I am finding that the no4 is a very curious thing. Almost like a thoroughbred horse you have to treat it right to make it work well, the thing is to figure out how to treat it, LOL. Its going to drive me mad I reckon

Are other milsurps as bad?

My P14 seems to need no/little work in comparison. Though Ive not met anyone alive who knows how to look after it.

[browningautorifle]

Are other milsurps as bad?

Yes...

[Bruce_in_Oz]

The poor old P-14 was treated as "the dodgy cousin that nobody wants in their house" and rapidly offloaded to the outer colonies or "emerging states" post WW1.

So many were given away / dumped at sea etc, that when the next "great unpleasantness" started, those at the low end of the logistic food chain often found themselves clutching a "pike" (bayonet on a broomstick), or if they were "lucky", an American-donated M-17, for which there was, of course, no ammo.

Australia used the odd P-14 in the "value-added package" form of the No3T sniper rifle, earning some fame on Timor.

[Frederick303]

One thing I would mention, which applies more to the No1 MK III* than the No 4, is that a lot of the fine tuning on these rifles were specific to the rifle. By that I mean that the fit of the 3 barrel/wood points on the SMLE MK III, along with three two metal ones. (Barrel reinforce, pad before and after the inner band [Wood fits] the front nosecap to barrel, spring just to the rear of that and the inner band spring fit). In several of the written accounts of what they went through to make these guns shoot well in slow fire and rapid fire (Roberts comp) it is stated that a lot of the tuning was individual to gun.

Having examined a number of No4 rifles with central bedding, I can state that there is an art to where the pad is placed (1/3 of the way up from the barrel reinforce to under the middle band) on what distance and how the barrel compensates. Once again, based on the fact that the degree of hardness on No 4 action bodies varies somewhat, the draw pressure on these points seems to vary as well. It can be very frustration work, getting a rifle to group well with MK VII ammo at some distance. Of course with the near impossibility of getting shooting quantities of MK VII ammo these days, it really does not matter. All that I shoot these days, when I do is VIIZ or MKVIIIZ loads.

Lastly I would point out as competitive shooter and not a military user of these, that the front end bedding might be the best most reasonable method for service use, but when you add a US or British pattern sling and clinch it up tight, the center bedding on the No4 gives better results as regards group shift with varying sling pressures. I would much prefer to shoot a well regulated No4 center bedded than a front loaded No 4 if I have to use a sling.

Same is true of K31 by the away, they shot very well with a front load of 1 KG and a wee bit of damping induced by the top barrel clamp and handguard (just snug). Try to use the sling as you would on an NRA course of fire and it gets a wee bit trickier.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

Maybe, THIS time?

[muffett.2008]

Nice try Bruce, wrong thread though