AK&S no32 mk3 scope

[Surpmil]

So the telescope number on the wrist of the butt was not considered sufficient reference to tie a a scope to a rifle, if the scope was separated from the butt? Even though the butts all(?) had the rifle and scope number stamped into them?

What proportion of No4(T)s and L42s would you say did not have numbered brackets Peter?

|Seaforth......... Don't understand any of it! Can you clarify what you want me to answer in separate Q's otherwise the answer could take a page! In short, if a telescope is removed from an unnumbered bracket its parentage to THAT rifle is lost because the match is via the cross referenced tele and rifle number. Remove the tele from the bracket and any cross reference is lost. Now imagine the total chaos of 20 T rifles in a big workshop all being totally stripped on a bench and being rebuilt later. Yes, you can match the tele to the rifle from the paperwork. But you cannot match the most important part of the equation......... The bracket and rifle. So, if for any reason you have to remove the tele, you MUST number the bracket.

[Peter Laidler]

Rob......... I'm now tearing my hair out now......... Yes, the tele number on the butt and tin was sufficient for everyday purposes. BUT the TELE is not matched to the rifle per se. It is the BRACKET with tele that is matched to the rifle. Take the tele out of the bracket and you can still match the tele to the rifle. BUT YOU CANNOT MATCH THE ALL IMPORTANT BRACKET TO THE RIFLE all. Especially if you are working on a bench full

Think about it...........

[tedd]

Hello all,
anybody got an idea of a fair price for a genuine No4 T action (was a sporter) rebuilt with a Walther barrel and new woodwork and fitted with a genuine scope?

Tedd

[Roger Payne]

Tedd, is it now back in military trim?

Peter, I follow you absolutely, but you mentioned in an earlier post that it wasn't 'de rigeur' to serial the brackets, yet I've never seen a L42A1 with an unnumbered bracket. Did this happen commonly (not being numbered, I mean) in practice?

[Peter Laidler]

More hair pulling out.............. You'll find that on the L42's, they all(?) probably have the brackets numbered simply because you've got to take the tele out of the bracket to re-engrave the tube. It's nigh on impossible to get the old T-H engraving cutter head into the gap between the rear bracket cradle and the segment rings. And the tele had to go into a special jig to be engraved in any case. So on that basis alone, the important maxim applies. TELE OUT OF BRACKET, NUMBER BRACKET to retain parentage with rifle. And remember that while the rifles were being converted at RSAF, the telescopes were being converted at various Base Workshops around the Country.

[Roger Payne]

........so in practice all brackets will be engraved, then?

I do believe I've finally got it!

[Surpmil]

Rob......... I'm now tearing my hair out now......... Yes, the tele number on the butt and tin was sufficient for everyday purposes. BUT the TELE is not matched to the rifle per se. It is the BRACKET with tele that is matched to the rifle. Take the tele out of the bracket and you can still match the tele to the rifle. BUT YOU CANNOT MATCH THE ALL IMPORTANT BRACKET TO THE RIFLE all. Especially if you are working on a bench full

Think about it...........

Oh, I realize that the center axis of the bracket is (supposed to be) collimated to the center axis of the bore.

Just understood you to say that only the bracket was considered a valid record of the numbers for matching purposes.

It's a good thing we all speak the same lingo!

[Peter Laidler]

Bracket not necessarily engraved DRP as they are difficult to hold in the engraving jaws. Simple and far quicker to just lightly number stamp the bracket. But don't try to change the Mk3 to L1A1 designation using stamps..........

It is a fact Robert that during the conversion to T spec at H&H, it was the final machining of the pads while fitted to the body that ensured the mechanical centre line or axis of THAT BRACKET that was collimated with the mechanical centre line or axis of the BORE of THAT rifle. Given that fact, any optically spun centred telescope could be fitted - or indeed changed for another during its long life. By all means change a telescope, and we occasionally did as required. But NEVER, never, ever change a bracket if you can help it.

I know the true experts disagree but I'm just saying it as H&H told me and as more experienced Armourers told likewise

[Roger Payne]

Peter, yes, in reference to the brackets I should really have used the word 'marked' as that would have covered both engraving & stamping. I was just trying to get to the point that although it may not have been obligatory to mark the brackets with the rifle serial number in practice the situation amounted to that for L42's because all of the scopes had to be removed from their brackets in order to be 'metricated' & marked up as such.

Yes, it's a buXXer trying to hit those stamps directly above the erector cell lenses when converting a Mk3 tube to a L1A1. I must have broken half a dozen scopes before I twigged it wasn't a great idea.......

[RobD]

Tedd, at a rough guess, a new re-build around an original No 4(T) action would be roughly worth roughly around the £2,500 mark. Roughly.